Is it a bedroom or not? Let’s talk about what makes a bedroom a bedroom. I had someone ask me this question a few weeks ago after I wrote about whether a bedroom needs a window or not. I hope this is helpful. Feel free to pitch in any further insight or ask questions below.
Four things a room MUST have to be considered a bedroom:
1) Entrance: A bedroom needs at least two methods of egress, so it should be accessible from the house (commonly through a door), and then have one other exit (window or door).
2) Ceiling Height: A bedroom ceiling needs to be at least 7 ft tall. It’s okay if some portions of the ceiling are below this level, but at least 50% of the ceiling needs to be a minimum of 7 ft in height. Most ceilings tend to be at least 8 ft tall, so ceiling height is not usually an issue (R305.1).
3) Escape: A bedroom must have one other method of egress beyond the entrance point. A door to the exterior works as an exit point, and so does a window. According to the International Residential Code, a bedroom window can be between 24 and 44 inches from the floor, it needs at least 5.7 square feet for the opening, and it must measure no less than 24 inches high and 20 inches wide (R310.1).
4) Size: The room should be at least 70 sq ft, and more specifically the room cannot be smaller than 7 feet in any horizontal direction (sorry, that 1’x70′ room won’t work) (R304.2 / R304.4).
As you can see, size, access, light, and ventilation all matter when it comes to defining a bedroom (IRC). There is one more issue we should talk about though. The closet.
Are closets required? A bedroom should probably have a closet since most buyers expect one, but technically the International Residential Code does NOT mandate a bedroom to have a closet. So the lack of a closet does not necessarily mean a room cannot be a bedroom. However, we must ask, what does the local real estate market expect, and what is required by the local city/county? Would buyers consider a room as a bedroom if there is no closet? In newer tract subdivisions it’s probably a bigger deal to have no closet, but in older classic homes where bedrooms were sometimes not built with closets, it’s very likely not an issue at all. For instance, consider a Victorian home without closets in any bedrooms. While some in the real estate community say closets are always required, that rule doesn’t really apply here for two reasons: 1) The IRC definition of a bedroom does not actually mandate a closet; and 2) If the market considers the rooms as bedrooms, that’s what they are. It would be highly improbable for buyers to walk through an old Victorian home without closets and say, “The house was stunning and utterly perfect… but there weren’t any bedrooms”. Does that make sense? Ultimately closets are not technically mandated by the international definition, but they may be expected and/or required by local code.
Any further thoughts or insight? I’d love to hear your take.
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Great information as usual. I’m always having to answer the question of what makes a bedroom for real estate agents. Now I can just forward your article.
Right on Gary. Thank you so much.
I’m sorry to hear about your accident in April. Glad you are ok. I found your page to be quite helpful as I’m trying to put a bid on a so called 5 bedroom house as is and only 2 bedrooms have closets. It is a closed bid through a church and I was a little skeptical about the bedrooms but I believe you cleared that up for me thank you again for being helpful. ?
Thanks Michelle. I appreciate the kind words. My knee is feeling so much better too, and I’m incredibly grateful for that. Anyway, keep me posted if you have any follow-up questions. I’m glad the post was helpful. Best wishes on the bid.
in the entire article I didn’t read anything about heat shouldn’t a room have heat?
Hi Eduino. Thank you for mentioning that. I didn’t talk about a heat source because that’s really a prerequisite to be considered square footage or livable space. This post is more about whether something within livable space is a bedroom or not. Anyway, the answer to your question would be yes though. A bedroom must have a heat source that is deemed adequate per local code. In my area in the suburbs we would expect a bedroom to typically either be connected to a central heat system or to have heat that would stem from a wall heater in the hallway / living room. In a more rural market a property might be okay with just a pellet stove (but that wouldn’t fly in the suburbs because that’s not what the market expects). If any onlookers are wondering about what heat sources are adequate for your area, I would suggest contacting either the local city or county (or whatever governing body manages code).
does a room with 3 walls count as a bedroom? it meets all other requirements and even has a closet, it’s just missing 1 interior wall 🙂
Hi Curiouser. In most cases I’d probably say NO because a bedroom is typically self-contained (enclosed). I’m not sure the exact situation you are thinking of, but I see builders sometimes do an optional den instead of a bedroom. The room really could easily become a bedroom with the addition of one wall (and a door), but it’s not quite there yet because it’s functionally set up as a den. I suppose in some situations I might look at an area with three walls as a bedroom though if it was easily curable to add a fourth wall (or if the design of the house or area somehow made three walls acceptable). From an appraisal standpoint it can make sense to view a room like this if that’s the way the market views it. So sometimes there’s not much of a value difference between layouts with a room that’s almost a bedroom (see this post https://sacramentoappraisalblog.com/2017/11/08/when-a-home-is-almost-three-bedrooms-but-technically-only-two/). Though from a rental standpoint I’m not sure three walls would qualify as a full bedroom though. On one hand a buyer might look at an optional den, for instance, and recognize its potential as a bedroom and therefore pay more for the house because it’s not going to be hard to make this a full-fledged fourth bedroom. Yet from a rental standpoint, it may be a different story because the room really isn’t a typical setup for sleeping. Honestly it’s hard to speak into a situation like this too much though without seeing photos or seeing something in person. You are welcome to email me a photo or two as a follow-up if you wish.
Would a bedroom be considered a bedroom if it was one rounded shaped wall not the standard for wall square rooms.
Hi Cory. Great question. I’m not aware of any rule that states a bedroom has to be a certain shape. It would maybe be a little different, but I don’t see why it would be a problem as long as all other requirements are met in terms of egress and size and such.
Very interesting!
We have FROG (finished room over garage), two shorter walls and two full sized walls. I wanted to add a closet on the full height wall, on either side of the window, to make it a practical bedroom. Does this make sense to you? I wanted to make our house a 4 bedroom/3 bath instead of a 3 bedroom with a FROG.
Any ideas?
You might be asking Eduino, but I just wanted to chime in in case it was me. I really have no idea here. It’s very hard to visualize.
The room is 7.5 by 16 with a closet window 48inches high by 58 baseboard heating and a a/c it has a 60 inch opening and want to enstall a 60 inch sliding French door. Is this considered a bedroom. The room was divided the other room is 10 1/2 by 18
Hi Barbara. Thanks for checking in. Honestly, it’s really hard to say here without saying it, so unfortunately I don’t have a definitive opinion for you. Your last sentence though makes me think this room was possibly divided from another room at some point. If this new area does not have access to the main hallway, then it sounds like it may be a retreat of sorts from the other room. Sorry I couldn’t be more useful.
I am appraising a rancher with 3 bedrooms, however, the full bath is located in the master bedroom. you need to go through the mster to get to the full bath, There is a half bath in the hallway. Can you still call this a 3 bedroom since you have to access the bath through the 3rd bedroom?
Hi Cindy. I think you’re going to get divided opinions on this when talking to appraisers. Some will say it’s a two-bedroom and others might call it a 3-bedroom with functional obsolescence. I am prone to call a layout like this a 2-bedroom with a Den because one of the “bedrooms” has a real functional issue. But I wouldn’t fault a colleague who said it was a 3-bedroom with functional obsolescence. No matter what this is definitely not a traditional 3-bedroom home though. In terms of value it would be nice if you had a few sales of this property through the years to sort of gauge how the market responded. I always like when a history of sales can sort of paint a context for how the market has seen a property. Otherwise it’s tough to find comps with the same issue. Best wishes.
If a bedroom has a closet where the water heater and the furnace is. Can that be count as a closet for that particular room? The seller put shelves in that closet along the water heater and the furnace.
I really appreciate your response
Hi Claudia. Hmm, that is an odd set-up. It’s pretty iffy in the first place to have a bedroom with a furnace. It’s not common either to have a water heater in a bedroom. I would defer to local code here, but I’m skeptical speaking from an appraiser standpoint. I think part of me would wonder why the furnace and water heater are in a bedroom closet in the first place. Is this maybe a different type of room that’s being used as a bedroom now? Those are my questions.
So I’ve been thinking about putting my house up for sale. It’s 2 story 2 rooms upstairs don’t have a closet but has a window with an air conditioner. Can this be considered a bedroom or does it have to be a bonus room and does it effect the value of a house thx
So sorry didn’t see the comment way at the bottom I apologize for asking right here thanks
Sounds like you’re good then. If not, I’m glad to comment. I’ve lost track of all the comments on this post. Lots of them. Haha.
i was wondering there is a person who lives inside a closet where i rent but a closet is not consider a room am i right
Hi Milton. Thanks for the comment. A closet is definitely not a bedroom. There are some large closets for sure, but a closet is still a closet.
Does it have to be an egress window if it’s upstairs
Hi Tawni. A bedroom really needs to have two methods of egress, so yes. If there was a fire upstairs and no secondary escape, that could end badly.
I have a question! I have a house im renting that were paying for a 2 bedroom however the one “bedroom” you have to walk through to get to any other part of the house it almost a second living room. There’s no ac unit for the house so we have the ac thing in our window which is the only window that “room” to come out of the actual bedroom you automatically walk into that other room, and then to the laundry room you’d have to walk through that room and to the kitchen and the rest of the house wish is just a living room and bathroom you have to walk through that room. Any ideas? Or options? Advice?
Hi Ashley. Thank you for reaching out. I’m really not sure what type of advice you are looking for, though it sounds like you are wondering if there might be a discount in rent in order. It’s hard to say since I don’t know your area (assuming you are not in Sacramento). One would think your unit would have a discount in rent because of the funky layout, though maybe it is already discounted. On the other hand, if the rental market is hot and there are few rentals available (this is happening in many markets right now), there may not be much of an impact on rent at all compared to a normal unit. It’s too bad there is no AC because that can get inconvenient very fast. Sorry I couldn’t be of much help, though it sounds like it might be a good idea at some point to find a more traditional layout (with AC). I wish you the best.
I assume you viewed the apartment before deciding to rent it and observed the inconveniences you mentioned. if not, that was your mistake, and yours alone. i assume the landlord did not twist your arm and force you to sign the lease. so what’s your complaint ?!!
I have a room that has two doors leading to different parts of the house, but not to the outside of the building. can I class this as a bedroom?
Hi Jaimie. Thanks so much for reaching out. This doesn’t sound like a bedroom since it does not have egress to the outside of the house.
It seems there does not need to be egress to the OUTSIDE of the house, there must be egress that allows you to depart from the room, even if to another.
Two doors that lead to the same room or exit area would not be acceptable as that room might be on fire and others not.
I know of several homes that have interior bedrooms without exit to the exterior of the house.
The rules could be different in various locations. Doesn’t it seem like a hazard if there is no escape from the room though? This is why a door or window as an escape is written into code. I don’t tend to see rooms on an interior of the home. That’s rare and I don’t recall if I’ve ever even seen that. Could the rules be different in a situation like that? I’m not sure.
Hi, one of my rooms don’t have a heat source is that aloud?
Hi Sarah. Thanks for the question. If you have a wall heater in the Living Room, it would be very normal to not have an individual heat source in each room. On the other hand if you have central heat in every room in the house besides this one room you are talking about, that is probably not normal. I suppose I would question if the extra room was an addition and if it was permitted. It is curious why this one room would not have a heat source. Is it allowed? Local code would be the best answer to be honest. I can’t go out on a limb to say whether it is legal or not legal because I don’t know your market. If all rooms have a heat vent besides yours though, I think you are right to be concerned about that.
Hi Ryan,
We are in the process of selling my mothers house. The house as listed for sale as a 3 bedroom home. The inspection all went thru but the FHA is requiring us to put a heat source on the third floor because there is a closet there and want to use it as a bedroom. Can you tell me what the requirments are for the heat or if it’s necessary if it was not listed as a bedroom
Hi Susan. First of all, I’m sorry for the delay in response. I had an accident in the mountains last week that I’ve been dealing with. I haven’t worked all week and this is literally the first time I’ve been at my desk at my home office. It may be an ACL tear, but we’re not sure yet. Anyway, the truth is there is not one universal answer. If I were you I would call your local city or county and ask them what is considered a permanent heat source. In a cabin a heat source might be a wood-burning stove, but in a tract neighborhood that is VERY unlikely to be okay. Thus I would defer to your local code. I wouldn’t explain what you are doing, but I would only ask them what constitutes a permanent heat source so you can figure it out. A couple years ago I came across a house that had a plug-in space heater. This was definitely not okay, so I called for a permanent heat source, and the owner went with a baseboard heater, which happened to be the least expensive option. As long as code allows it and the market accepts it, that’s fine. Best wishes.
Hey Ryan,
We have a customer and they are considering having custom built-in shelving for their bedroom and also wanted custom built-in CABINETRY. These may be dumb questions. Will this built-in cabinetry change the designation of being considered a bedroom closet? How would this effect the resale, and appraisal, if any?
Hi Bret. Thanks for the question. That’s a good one. I’m assuming you are talking about a traditional bedroom with a traditional closet, but there is custom cabinetry in the space of the closet instead. I see this at times because someone will build a desk in the cutout where the closet normally goes. Personally I cannot think of any instance where I did not consider it a bedroom as such just because there was a desk or cabinets in the space of the closet. It is still fundamentally a bedroom and there is still a cutout for the closet, and that is the biggest issue in my mind. The cost-to-cure of removing cabinets and adding a closet door would be very minimal, so I think it’s usually best to consider such a room as a bedroom still. I don’t find markets to be so sensitive either as if they would say it is not a bedroom just because there is a desk. I will say if a room has a tremendous amount of built-ins and feels more like a traditional office because of all that is there, I would probably call it an office. In your situation I would just make sure there is a very clear space for a closet. If there is not a cutout for a closet, an appraiser might think of the room as an office instead. I actually just appraised something like this recently and I ended up calling it a bedroom because in this case the original owner selected the “office” feature from the builder for the downstairs bedroom. Yet the only thing that made it an “office” was a built-in desk. If removing that it would look like a traditional bedroom. Regarding resale value it’s so hard to say much because markets are different everywhere. I would just say if it is appealing and you think it will be for the long haul, great. If it feels weird and is really only desirable for one person, then it’ll probably damage marketability. As in all things, I would make sure you check with some local real estate professionals too just to be sure. But that’s my two cents. I hope it helps.
Ryan;
Great article. One thing to add. The IRC nor the CRC define what a closet is. Often in older Victorian homes bed rooms had Wardrobes or Armoires basically furniture that served as closets. If you take a tour of Hearst Castle you will not find any closets in any of the bedrooms. They all have Wardrobes or Armoires
Thank you. It would be nice if there was one definition for us to work with. This is exactly why we have to listen to the market also. What does the market expect in terms of closets? The answer can vary depending on the type of property or year built (Victorian vs current). Just the other day someone asked me for advice on converting a Den into a Bedroom. The owner was intent to add a closet, and asked what the minimum size was for a closet. I told him the best thing to do would be to back away from trying to do any bare minimum and simply focus on being sure the closet was adequate in size compared to the rest of the house. That’s about as good as it gets and would help this other room feel like the rest of the house too.
Hi how does this apply to loft bedroom as in a high rise where there is no 4th wall or Sliding flex wall as barrier.
Hi Susie. This is where I’d defer to your local market. I don’t appraise things like this in Sacramento, so I think we have to be cautious about imposing a bedroom definition on every single type of property for every location. My questions are as follows: What does your local code say (if anything) about what defines a bedroom? And most of all, what does the market accept as a bedroom? If your market regularly accepts these spaces as bedrooms, it’s hard to argue that it’s not one even if it doesn’t fit neatly into my post above. I wish I had a specific answer for you, but many questions end up leading to other questions…. Sigh.
Does a doorway into a room need a door to be considered a bedroom? Without one, is it a bedroom without a door or just another room?
Hi Dennis. I would not say a bedroom is not a bedroom just because there is not a door. As an appraiser at least I would look at this as a bedroom that is simply lacking a door. For rental purposes or code compliance there might be different rules that mandate doors of course, but practically speaking this is fundamentally still a bedroom. It just doesn’t have a door.
Hi, it has always been my understanding that a bedroom has to have accesibility to a bathroom. Has that changed? or have I been wrong all these years…..if you have a room with a window, closet and door however you have to go through a room to a bathroom,,,,is that declared a bedroom?
Sorry for the late reply here. I’ve had some health issues and I’ve been away from my desk. I’m just finally starting to get back (not even fully back yet). A bedroom does NOT need access to a bathroom. Think about a 3-bed / 1-bath house. In this situation it’s likely that none of the bedrooms have direct access to a bathroom. This does not mean they are not bedrooms. It’s hard to visualize exactly what you are talking about here. In my mind it sounds like there is simply a bathroom in a bedroom (like a classic master bedroom situation). This is a bathroom. Now if this is the only bathroom in the house and there are multiple bedrooms, then this is a functional problem.
Ryan, thanks for doing the research on this. What you say makes sense, and I will definitely share it with my clients.
Thank you so much Tom. It’s an interesting issue since we have to consider the basic four points as shown above from the IRC definition, yet for closets we have to consider what the local market says – not to mention county and/or city code. Many times the real estate community wants black and white answers, or a simple and quick “yes” or “no”. But answers like that are unfortunately uncommon. There is usually some sort of standard or technical answer, which might not even apply to every type of property or location.
Hi Ryan,
I’ve also heard that a room cannot be a bedroom if it has a door that opens into the garage. Is that true?
Thanks,
Jane
Hi Jane. Thanks for the comment. You are correct that a bedroom cannot have a door that opens to the garage. Now whether buyers pay less because one room opens to the garage or not is one thing, but it’s definitely not within code.
Hi Ryan,
Can you give me the FNMA link that states that a bedroom door cannot open into a garage? I’ve been looking online for an hour and cannot seem to locate it. Thx! Lesa Esparza
Hi Lesa. Thanks for the comment. I am not aware of any Fannie Mae rule that states a bedroom cannot open to a garage. There may be one, and if someone has documentation, I’d love to hear about it. Otherwise it is a local code issue as far as I’m concerned. There are bedrooms that do open to a garage in my area on occasion, and that is usually because an owner has modified the bedroom to do so. I simply disclose it in the appraisal with a photo and text.
Ryan,
There are a couple more requirements to have an interior room be considered a conforming sleeping area.
It has to have a latchable door, to afford privacy. Those beads we used in the ’70s don’t count.
But more important, they are required to have a smoke detector, both inside the room and in the common area towards the room.
During my home inspections, it’s size, privacy, sounding devise and emergency egress. Those are the minimum requirements
Thanks Ken. I appreciate your insight. C’mon, you can’t disrespect the beads though. 🙂
hahaha miss my beads and lava lamps. thanx for all the good info.
You’re welcome. 🙂
This must only be in California. In TX, a room does not have to include a smoke detector inside of it to be considered a bedroom/sleeping area. Maybe I misunderstood something in your post. If so, please let me know.
Hi there. A bedroom needs to have smoke alarms in most cases in California, but it does not mean it is not a bedroom if they are not present. I think we are hopefully all on the same page there. It just wouldn’t make reasonable sense otherwise because buyers don’t walk in and say, “Unfortunately there aren’t any bedrooms because there are no smoke alarms…” I think the home inspector above who commented was noting code more than drawing a line of demarcation on what a bedroom fundamentally is. In most cases California requires smoke alarms in bedrooms, but not every single case either as can be seen at the following link. https://sacramentoappraisalblog.com/2014/01/23/do-appraisers-require-smoke-detectors/
Thanks for the comment. Hopefully that cleared things up. If not, let’s keep talking.
Smoke detectors in bedrooms and common areas are required in Washington, and especially if you have foster kids. They check that out and they love it if they are all synced together.
Question though. If you have one room, with two doors, and you go through that room to access another room with 2 doors and go through that room to access a room with 2 doors to access another room with 2 doors… and they are all connected in order to get from side A to side B of a 2nd story. Each “room” has a closet and a window. Can you call this a room? Even though to get to my room I would have to walk through 3 peoples bedrooms?
Hi Carrie. Thanks for the comment. It’s not easy to visualize exactly what you are talking about. It’s okay if these rooms are connected to each other even though that would be strange for bedrooms. But if these rooms are not also accessible from a hallway, then it wouldn’t be prudent for appraisers to consider them as bedrooms in my opinion. This may not be exactly the same, but I recall valuing a property where one of the “bedrooms” was only accessible by walking through a front bedroom. https://sacramentoappraisalblog.com/2016/03/07/why-did-the-appraiser-say-it-was-only-two-bedrooms-it-should-be-three/ In this case I did not count this other room as a bedroom. I wonder if what you are describing is a converted attic or something. It’s curious why there wouldn’t be any hallway (if that’s the case).
Ryan,
In my training to become an appraiser I was taught of another requirement, but cannot find a source to cite for the reviewer- There must be a full bath on the same floor that the space is located in order for it to be called a bedroom. I have not seen this addressed in this comment thread, could you please weigh in?
Hi Walt. Thanks for checking in. I’ve heard this idea through the years, but never once have I heard anyone cite a source. Thus in my mind I think it’s appraiser folklore. It’s just one of those things that seems to get handed down through the generations without any real support (unless there really is a source? anyone?).
In my mind it doesn’t make logical sense to impose a rule like this on homes since architectural design and home trends through the years tends to vary and change. Would it be a potential functional issue if there was a second story with a bedroom and no bathroom on that level? Yes. But does that mean it is not a bedroom? I don’t see how we can argue that. The irony is buyers and renters would use the space as a bedroom in most cases (especially if this was the third bedroom). Let’s remember the space was clearly intended to be used as a sleeping area. Thus it becomes ironic when appraisers come into the equation and bring in a rule like this that seems to go against the market…
Ultimately I’m inclined to file this in the “stuff we believe because our mentors taught us” box. I realize I have a different take than some appraisers on this issue, and I’m open to correction on anything. But if we’re not careful it’s easy to perpetuate ideas without any real basis for truth, and my humble opinion is that this is one of those situations… 🙂
Great post Ryan. The closet thing is a very good point. I have appraised Victorian Style home like you mentioned and wardrobes Narnia style were the closets in those days!
Thanks so much Jeff. Great Narnia reference. I should mention such a wardrobe would definitely increase the value, especially if it opened up to a tropical beach…
Hi, I have a garden room and my teenager wants to use it as a bedroom. Is this legal? It is 10 feet by 10 feet with a connecting door into another identical room. There are double french doors for each room to the front and also 2 small windows that don’t open There is light and power but no plumbing. The builder followed the guidelines and it has been built the correct distance from the house and the boundaries. I have attempted to research this and all I can find is a requirement that I fit smoke alarms that are mains powered. Is this all I need to do? Really hoping you can help Cheers Katy
Hi Katy. I really wish I could help, but I see your email address (showed to me in private) is from the UK, so I’m really not in tune with what standards might be in your area. This of course assumes you are indeed talking about the UK. The best way to find the answer to your question would be to contact your local city or county (or whoever makes the rules in your area). A quick phone call to a building department would probably get you the answer you need. Best wishes.
What if the bedroom window is a picture window that doesn’t open? Is that considered a 2nd exit/entrant?
Hi Debbie. I don’t write code, so unless there is some technicality that would allow for a picture window, in my book it doesn’t sound like an adequate exit to me if the window doesn’t open. Of course this sounds like an issue that would be presumably easy to cure, but it doesn’t sound safe to me.
A home is a castle in UK just as it is here in the USA. I really doubt that the bedroom police are going to arrest you for letting your son sleep in such an arrangement.
The real issue is that you probably have code enforcement and if your son has pissed off any neighbors or makes a lot of noise and nuisance out there then you will have problems.
Unless it met all the regulations it could not be rented to others as a cottage (if you get my meaning).
I often see homes with a finished attic that are used as bedrooms or the RE agent will call it a bedroom in the listing. But unless the house has a full bath on the same floor I don’t call it a bedroom. Every other bedroom has convenient access to a full bath so it’s a question of equivalent functional utility.
Interesting take Leon. I appreciate your comment. I’m picturing a second story built by a builder with only a bedroom on that level (no bathroom). Would this second story room not be considered a bedroom because it does not have access to a bathroom on the same floor? I’m just trying to understand where you are coming from (not being argumentative). Thank you for the comment.
Leon & Pat, I was thinking about our conversation today while inspecting a house with an added “bedroom” all the way across on the other side of the house. It did have an additional bathroom in that area, so it was legitimate, but still a bit odd to be separated from the rest of the pack (beds on other side of the house). Thanks for the conversation. It’s always good to chat and share knowledge.
What about rooms one must pass through to get to another room? In my market, many older homes (especially older farm houses) have stairs that take you to a room on the second floor. This room has a closet, 7 ft ceiling height, is 10×12, has a door that locks, has at least one window, and…you must pass through this room to enter another room. In other words, it has a door in the front of the room and a door in the back. This second room is just like the first except no one must pass through it to get anywhere else in the house (just one entrance door and windows).
I do not consider the first room that one must pass through to be a bedroom. The second room is a bedroom. What do you think?
Thanks for the comment, Dave. That’s an interesting situation, and there is certainly some functional obsolescence going on. A quick call to the city’s building department would solve this issue for me, and that would hands-down hold the strongest weight in my book. If it was legal in the eyes of the building department, I would count it as a bedroom, but then consider any value impact in light of the functional obsolescence. I’d have to investigate further what local code says about this. My gut reaction though is I would likely consider only one of these rooms as a bedroom because of the potential safety issue because one room does not have normative egress to the inside of the house. Also, I can imagine most buyers would not consider it a bedroom either, which would play into how I define it too. It sounds like a perfect situation for a bedroom and then a separate office (or my home office and then a separate man cave….).
I lived in a house like this in Montana. It was located across the street from the university, so, naturally WE considered it a bedroom (college house and all…I’ve seen friends sleep in closets).
When we saw it the owner was very explicit that the room was not a bedroom. He referred to it as a sitting room or office area. Apparently, because the door on the other side of that room (the actual bedroom) could be locked, then it didn’t really have two methods of egress. It did have a window, but it didn’t meet the size requirement (which is 5.7 sq. ft.) of opening space.
So there ya have it 🙂 Here, we stick to the IBC codes without changing them. So, I imagine that would apply to most places.
Ha. That’s classic Jen. I’m sure the owner was protecting himself, but knowing full well how the room would be used. Oh the days of college… Thankfully I never slept in a closet, but I did go for years without sheets on my bed (that changed when I got married). 🙂
To avoid functional obsolescence a bedroom occupant should have access to and from a bath without passage through a main living area. Or Ny other room. We have many new homes being built in our area which have a “den” located off the foyer. Agents try to call this a third bedroom. But that is not what goes into my report
Thanks Pat. I’m not sure what you mean by “without passage through a main living area”. I’d love to hear you unpack that a bit more if you can. Also, I’m curious about the den. What is it about the den that makes it not be a bedroom in this situation?
What Pat is referring to is that builders are putting a room (that might or might not have a closet) near the main entry of the house. This room that is usually called a den by the builder. The realtor might call it a bedroom if it has a closet. In order to use a bathroom you would have to usually go through a good portion of the house to get to a bathroom. In the properties that I have seen you have to go past a formal dining room , past the living room, past a family room, past a kitchen to get to an opening in the hallway to use a bathroom or having to go through the main bedroom to use the main bathroom.
Thanks Billy. That makes perfect sense, though I wasn’t going to assume that was what Pat was saying.
over time, prohibitions against “functional obsolescence” find their way into building code and HUD guidelines. at the lower end of the housing market this magnifies the lack of affordable housing which compounds the populace percentage on housing assistance programs.
When you say “a second story built by a builder” am I correct that you mean a second floor addition? That would mean that the home as originally constructed has bedrooms & bath on the ground floor. I would probably call the addition a loft and count it in the GLA but not as a bedroom. Back when I started in this business I had a teacher, one of my favorites, who answered nearly every question by saying “That depends…”. In this case it depends on what is typical to the neighborhood. But what I’m really talking about is a one or two story dwelling with a gabled roof and a walk-up finished attic. I believe that bedrooms that don’t have a bath on the same floor do not meet market expectations because they don’t build new homes like that. People who like historic homes accept all sorts of functional inadequacy with no affect on value but that’s not a the typical home buyer. I don’t think that you are being argumentative. It is important for appraisers to understand how other appraisers reason. It helps to bring consistency to the profession.
I agree with Pat. Homes have main or public living areas and private living areas. It is one thing to walk through a hallway wearing only your robe (or sometimes a towel) in the private area of your house where the bedrooms are and a completely different thing to take that walk through the living or family room while another family member is entertaining guest.
Yes, that is what I mean by my second story comment. I hear what you are saying, and I appreciate your constructive tone and conversation too. It is a rarity to see a newer home with a bedroom on a floor without a bathroom. I do see this in older homes though, and in many cases it’s from a conversion or addition of some sort as you say. I understand what you are saying about these situations not being customary, and it sounds like you are really considering what is typical in the neighborhood too, yet part of me is cautious about slapping on a “it’s not a bedroom if there is no bathroom on the same floor” rule. It may be an atypical layout, but that does not mean it’s not a bedroom. The same seems true when considering a room that is closer to public areas of the house instead of more private ones. I know what you are getting at, but it seems like we are talking about functional obsolescence instead of the definition of a bedroom. Any thoughts?
I believe Fannie Mae guidelines require a bedroom to be above grade. A “bedroom” in the basement is not living area. Did I miss that in the comments?
Hi Arleen. Thanks for the comment. Fannie Mae does state living area must be above grade, but there are some cases where appraisers and the real estate community can deviate from this rule to actually include a basement or below-grade area in the total square footage of the home (this could theoretically mean bedrooms below-grade could be counted in the living area). I wrote about this in a post here in case it’s useful for any onlookers: https://sacramentoappraisalblog.com/2014/05/27/can-a-basement-be-consdered-square-footage/
Hi Ryan, The issue really is about functional obsolescence and not the definition of a bedroom. Really almost any room can be adapted to most residential purposes. Like a home office in an unused bedroom. It’s still a bedroom regardless of the furniture. In general we all select comps that are most like the subject. If I have a subject with bedrooms on a floor with no bath I look for a comp with a similar floor plan. That’s much easier than trying to prove an adjustment for functional utility. In general, because of utility, I don’t call it a bedroom if it doesn’t have a bath on the same floor. If I have a comp with a similar floor plan neither my report nor the value are misleading.
That said, please do not think that I do sloppy or inaccurate work because I said “.. easier than trying to prove an adjustment for functional utility”. I have made adjustments for functional utility. I put considerable effort into researching & writing a report. With a complex assignment I sometimes have to think about the subject for a couple of days before I can narrow down my comp selection and do a proper reconciliation. I do occasionally get yelled at over turn times. And like most appraisers I am grossly under paid.
Sorry for the slight delay in response, Leon. I took the day off yesterday afternoon. Well said. I completely agree, and it sounds like you are a really good appraiser. I’m always game to learn from others, so thanks for pitching in your thoughts.
what if the window opens to another room because of add ons?
Hi Chris. It’s hard to visualize what you are talking about, but I would likely not consider it a bedroom if it does not open up to the outside. I think if it opens up to an enclosed patio, that could be a different story, but opening to a room that is part of the living area of the house sounds like a problem.
And of course, a bedroom must be above grade. This was probably mentioned, but I didn’t catch it.
Hi Arleen. Thanks so much for pitching in your thoughts. Nice to see your ASA designation too (I just met with a group of ASA appraisers last week actually). In most cases the bedrooms will be above grade. I agree on that. But there may be some instances where the market recognizes some below-grade space as bedrooms. Maybe a walk-out basement or some other partially below-grade room might still be worthy of being counted as a bedroom despite no technically being above grade. I had an instance where I considered some below grade rooms as bedrooms a couple years ago, and I wrote about it here: https://sacramentoappraisalblog.com/2014/05/27/can-a-basement-be-consdered-square-footage/ If anyone has thoughts on that, I’m always open to your take. Thanks again.
I believe that you are incorrect. If below grade and it has 2 methods of egress it is still a bedroom. If you have ever walked NYC then you have seen tens of them that way.
Generally you find windows that meet (or met old) fire codes for egress. That makes them totally legal as long as there is another exit.
I read once that to be marketed as a bed room it has to be off of a hall way of some sort. That if there is just a door in a wall directly from to the living room for instance, that it would have to be called a den, or office. Is this correct?
Hi Steve. There should be an egress to the outside of the house, so it wouldn’t technically be considered a bedroom. Now whether it is marketed as a “bedroom” is a different story. Properties are marketed by owners and agents in all sorts of ways despite reality. Often times in my local MLS a property might say “3-4” bedrooms when there are three full bedrooms and then one questionable area that is not really a bedroom but might functionally be used as one by a buyer.
Is a room considered a bedroom if there is no air ducts attached (as in no CA/CH)?
Hi Greg. That’s a great question. If the house has a wall heater, then there are likely no air ducts at all throughout the house since ducts are only present when there is a central heat/air system. In cases like this there may be a wall unit in the Living Room only, and that serves the entire house (which means any bedrooms would not have a direct heat unit because the wall heater is adequate for the entire house). So technically if your situation was a scenario like this, it would be okay to have a bedroom without ducts. However, in my professional opinion, if the rest of the house has CH&A, I would really question why a “bedroom” does not have access. A bedroom in this case should have a vent for CH&A if the rest of the house is set up that way. I could seem some appraisers viewing it differently, but I suppose I would be wondering what the issue is. Was this area permitted? If it is an addition, is it lower quality compared with the rest of the house? This would definitely bring up other issues needing to be explored.
Hi Ryan, does the FHA HOC (homeowner center) for your market mandate a closet be installed to be classified as a bedroom and/or is an Armoire adequate for a closet? Thank you.
Hi Bill. That’s a great question. No, FHA does not have a closet mandate. Like many other issues such as smoke detectors or carbon monoxide detectors, FHA defers to local building codes and standards when it comes to closets (this is what Santa Ana HOC told me this morning during a phone call). Being that FHA defers to local code, the armoire issue is a moot point. Have you heard otherwise? I always appreciate your insight.
What about heat/ A room should have some source of heat for comfort. Also , proper access.The only source of access should not be through another bedroom.
Thanks salvo321. You are correct about a heat source as well as access. We could certainly add those to the list, though they’re assumed here (just like we would assume there are walls, a roof, etc…). I do appreciate your comment very much.
We are looking at a home that has a room called a bedroom that does not connect to the house from the inside. The only entrance to the “bedroom” is out the front door onto a short deck (with no complete overhead roof, by the way) to where the entry door into this room is located. I was under the impression that a room with only an outside door and no interior access to the rest of the house would not be considered as a bedroom. And additionally this add-on has the only downstairs bathroom. The original house had only a small upstairs balcony bedroom and a small shower only-bath upstairs.
Hi Mark. Thank you for the comment. Your gut instinct is right. If you have to exit the home, the area does not get counted in the square footage. Here is an article I wrote about detached areas in case it’s relevant: https://sacramentoappraisalblog.com/2013/04/12/can-a-detached-unit-be-included-as-part-of-a-homes-square-footage/ Since it is detached, the extra “bedroom” (or bathroom) is not counted with the rest of the house from an appraisal standpoint, but from a marketing standpoint on MLS, I bet it is. 🙂 It sounds like what you are talking about here is not a classic 2-bed/2-bath house, but technically a 1-bed/1-bath with a detached studio of sorts (if the detached area has a kitchen, I’d call it an accessory dwelling since an accessory dwelling has to have a bathroom, kitchen, and sleeping area (bed/studio)).
I also have seen what Mark is describing. I once visited (for a party, not professionally) a near-luxury quality house where this was executed quite nicely. The owners gave lots of proud tours of their custom built home throughout the day.
There was a huge backyard patio with a good-sized 2-story structure attached on one end of the house (abutting the patio). While it was obvious that this was part of the original construction it resembled an add-on stick-out room in many ways.
The 1st floor of this structure functioned as combined game room (billiards table), storage area (deep-freeze, cabinets), and had a closable passthru window/counter they had rigged as a combined alcohol/juice/ice-cream bar. It also had two generous-sized half-baths which resulted in this area being whimsically called “The Cabana” even though they did not have a pool. The 1st floor egress included the aforementioned window and an exterior door onto the patio.
The upper room was built with a generous 3/4 bath and a walkin closet/storeroom. It was furnished like a studio apartment with and office-style kitchenette, a queen bed, a small sitting area, and a large desk/worktable. For egress it had several large windows and an exterior door onto a raised redwood deck which partially overshadowed the patio (directly over the bar area) and had a large hot-tub in the middle. The deck had additional egress directly into the master bedroom of the house (sliding glass door) and an exterior stairwell down to the patio.
Now technically both of these rooms have all the legal requirements of a bedroom but the lower level was just called a “gameroom”. The upper level was identified as a “guestroom” but when it was not occupied by guests it also doubled as an office taking advantage of the natural light for painting and writing. It was incorporated into the original roofline but did not have direct access to the house because it was abutting another 2nd story bedroom.
This (and Mark’s example) are the only times I have run across this kind of configuration but now I am wondering does a “legal” bedroom require direct interior access? Is it considered “detached” even if it is physically attached/incorporated as part of the house? Does it make any difference if the room was added later as long as it shares the roofline?
Thank you so much for the comment. I am on break until next week. I will write back throughly then. I just wanted to acknowledge your comment before. Talk to you soon.
Okay, I’m back in town. Thanks so much for the questions and for your patience with a response.
Does a “legal” bedroom require direct interior access?
To be considered square footage, an area (including a bedroom) needs to be directly accessible from the interior of the house. If you step outside of the house and into another space, it is not proper to include the other area as square footage. It can of course still count in the value, but sometimes there is a difference in value between space that is all accessible as living area and detached space. Here are some more thoughts here: https://sacramentoappraisalblog.com/2013/04/12/can-a-detached-unit-be-included-as-part-of-a-homes-square-footage/
Is it considered “detached” even if it is physically attached/incorporated as part of the house?
It’s considered detached if it is not attached to the house. If it is physically attached (and directly accessible), it can be considered attached (though it may or may not be square footage still). For instance, a second story conversion on top of a garage that is directly accessible to the rest of the house can be considered part of the living area, though if the conversion was not accessible to the rest of the house it would be considered to be a bonus room, accessory dwelling (if it had a bed, bath, and kitchen), or some other space. In the latter example, the conversion is technically attached to the house (and thus considered attached), but it’s not really square footage because of the lack of accessibility.
Does it make any difference if the room was added later as long as it shares the roofline?
What matters most is how the room is configured to the rest of the house. Is it accessible from the rest of the house or not? A roofline does not suffice in my mind because if one has to walk out of the house and under a common roof, that other area is something else other than part of the main square footage. The hope is an addition will conform well with the rest of the house and enhance the house rather than create an awkward floorplan. The tricky part becomes marketing a property and valuing it according to how the market really sees it. It can be challenging when there are many different areas.
Does that make sense? Let me know if you have any other follow-up questions.
Does this include a bedroom that is contained completely within a garage, all on the first floor?
one would have to go out a door from the living room into the garage, and then cross the garage and go into another door that is the bedroom? it also has windows and heating
(The garage is like a square with space for 4 separate parking areas, one of which is converted into a bedroom, but is separated from the house by the rest of the garage area
1 2
3 4
bedroom = 2
main house access is on the left side of #1,
3 & 4 are standard parking spots
Thank you!
Hi Jordan. This sounds like it doesn’t count in the square footage of the house. If it is not directly accessible to the rest of the house, an appraiser is not going to count it in the square footage. Does it need to still have the same standards for a bedroom despite that? I would defer to the building department on that one. In this case I think my first question is whether this is permitted or not. From a bedroom count standpoint though an appraiser actually wouldn’t count this room if it is essentially separate from the house. It almost sounds like a home office area that was converted in one of the garage spaces.
Thanks for the practical information. I just had, what I consider, a very inept appraiser come through my 1926 house in Placer County. He maintained that two of the bedrooms were not bedrooms because the closets were not full height. They are walk-in closets with 2-3 feet of 7′ high ceiling and then slope down to 4′. I’ll now be able to quote the IRC and have some good discussion with the next appraiser.
That’s interesting Jeanne. Did the appraiser say how tall the closets needed to be? Is your house any different from other homes built around the same time? (this would help show what the market accepts as a bedroom for an older home since today’s closets may actually be much different than a house that is almost 90 years old). I wonder if the appraiser is aware of what is called the “5 foot rule”. This following post helps illustrate what appraisers count as square footage when a ceiling is sloped. https://sacramentoappraisalblog.com/2012/07/03/are-you-using-the-5-foot-rule-when-calculating-square-footage/
Hi,
I did not talk to the first appraiser- unfortunately- and no- my house isn’t any different than the other old farmhouses in Loomis. These old houses rarely come up for sale and so there are rarely any comps.
The next appraiser one did a great job. He said they closets were fine. He calc’d my house with an extra 600 s.f. and counted the bedrooms correctly. In the end, this appraisal was $125k over the first one.
What I did learn was it’s okay to “interview” the appraiser beforehand. I was able to ask if he had experience in older homes and how he did his appraisal.
Thanks for the advice and the blog. It was very useful.
Hi Jeanne. I’m so glad to hear things went well for you. It’s a good idea to ask the appraiser a few questions when he/she calls. Well done on your end. That extra 600 sq ft made a huge difference!!
We received an appraisal back on a house we’re under contract for today and I’m pretty confused. The house was listed as 4 bedrooms, but the appraisal only came back with 3. It listed the 4th bedroom as a “study”. The bedroom is 12′ by 11′, has a standard sized window matching the requirements you list above, and even has a large (but not walk-in) double door closet. The only thing I can think of why it’s listed as a study and not a bedroom is because the circuit breaker box is located right next to that closet. Would that automatically disqualify it as a bedroom?
Hi Christine. Does the 4th room have a door so that it is enclosed like a normal bedroom? If it has a wide opening as a Den might have, I can see an appraiser calling it a Den or Study because that is maybe how it was designed to be. On a practical note, some appraisers might look at a floor plan and not count a room as a bedroom if it is isolated from everything else and far away from a bathroom (see comments on this thread). It’s hard to say why the appraiser did not consider it a bedroom in this case. It could be a clerical error or it could be something very intentional. The appraiser might very well have a well-considered reason. I might recommend reaching out through the lender to ask the appraiser for clarification just so you are aware of the rationale. As far as I know a circuit breaker box should not disqualify it from being a bedroom, though part of me is curious why the breaker box is located in the room. I hope everything goes smoothly for you.
Thanks for the quick reply! The bedroom has a normal bedroom door from a hallway and it’s about 5 steps away from a 1/2 bath. I’m thinking that because it’s on the lower level of a split level and near the den and laundry area, the appraiser considered it too far away. Which stinks, because we sure could use the added value of a 4th bedroom! As for why the circuit breaker box is there, I have no clue. Would make a boat load more sense for it to be in the laundry room. But the house is 45 years old and has its quirks I suppose.
Oh the quirks we find in real estate. I would still recommend asking the appraiser just so you know. Maybe the appraiser knows something about the house / bedroom that is not apparent. I hope all goes smoothly for you.
If a home was built in 1970, prior to these written requirements, and a basement room has a small window (12×18 for example), can this be considered as a bedroom?
A listing agent is saying that this room can be marketed as a bedroom, because it was built prior to the written requirement.
Thank you-
Hi Shannon. Thank you for reaching out. The issue here is not so much year built, but whether a basement should be considered square footage in the first place regardless of the year built. Typically when a room is below-grade it is not counted as living area when considering national standards as well as the way the market sees the property. Often buyers distinguish between area that is above grade vs below grade, meaning they tend to pay more for area that is above grade and less for area that is below grade. Here is a post on basements that might have some insight for you and your situation. Please let me know if you have any questions. https://sacramentoappraisalblog.com/2014/05/27/can-a-basement-be-consdered-square-footage/
Thank you…I did not think it could be considered a bedroom as there is only one point of exit, being the door into the larger basement area. This still leaves me quite confused, and I had not heard prior that house built prior to these guidelines are exempt.
Shannon, I wish I could completely clear things up for you, though it’s not always easy to speak definitively about a property when I cannot see it. I suppose if you know right away that basements don’t usually count anyway because of the reasons I talked about in the post I linked to, and if the basement doesn’t meet the 4 requirements either, then it’s best considered as a basement. Just remember that it can still contribute to the overall value of the home even though it does not count in the square footage (or bedroom count). You are welcome to email me too if you are confused. Best wishes.
I have a room with a closet a window and over 70 sqf size of the room but it is a sliding door the main entrance of this room. Is it considering a bedroom or has to have a regular door to be considered a bedroom?
Hi Amelie. That’s a great question. If I understand you correctly, the interior door is a sliding glass door? I’m not aware of any requirement for a very particular kind of door, but honestly there might be something in code somewhere that states the door needs to not be a sliding glass door. This is where I would definitely defer to the letter of the law for the definitive answer. I would recommend contacting your local county or city to ask them specifically about this. From an appraisal standpoint though I will say it is definitely not a normal thing for a room to have a sliding glass door on the interior. Moreover, if the room is smaller in size, a larger slider can interfere with the functional utility of the room.
Ryan: She just said “sliding door” which could be sliding glass (like for patios), sliding wood (like for closets or even for barns) or even a sliding pocket door. I think a better question to ask her is:
(a) does it provide privacy ?
and
(b) is it secure (does it latch and/or lock) ?
Thanks Jean-Pierre.
Ref : 9-3-15 sliding doors in bedroom
I believe that according to IRC R311.2 that all egress doors must be swing type which would include bedrooms. PLEASE CONFIRM–
a code violation is at issue in UT
Hi Larry. Thanks so much. I would defer to your local market regarding a door as such. I do not know the answer, though I’ve never seen a pocket type door that gives egress to the outside. That would be awkward for sure. I can say with certainty I’ve seen many sliding glass doors in master bedrooms, but that’s a different thing. Sorry I could not be more help. I would defer to your local building department on this one.
Hi, I have dining area inside my home which is currently have one side open (rest 3 sides have walls, no windows). I want to put a wall on the open side with an entry door. Also want to add 2 windows. Both windows and door will face inside the house (towards living area). Will this new room considered a bed room? I am in Dallas, Texas.
HI Sambit. Thanks for checking in. A bedroom needs to have an exterior egress, so a window (of adequate size) or a door would have to lead to the exterior. Not having an exterior egress would immediately disqualify the room from being a bedroom. If you need more details on your local code, you may want to reach out to your city’s building department. Best wishes. Thank you again.
Hi Ryan,
I’m buying a historic house in Woodland (1909). The appraiser is not counting one upstairs room as a bedroom even though it is clearly a bedroom. It easily meets all the requirements you list above, and even has a closet, though the closet door is short so you have to stoop to reach into it.
What specifically can I present to the appraiser as I go through an appeal?
Thanks!
Hi Shawn. That’s interesting. Why did the appraiser not consider it a bedroom? Does it not have a heat source maybe? Is it directly connected to the house? (it has to be directly accessible to the rest of the house to be considered living area). Was the second story not permitted? I might recommend asking the appraiser why it was not considered a bedroom to see what the appraiser says. You can always cut and paste any information about IRC or local code to help show the room does count. The appraiser might have a compelling reason. I will say sometimes in the real estate community we tend to defer to Tax Records as the definitive source of information, but in many cases public records do not always have accurate information about bed/bath count, garage count, living area, etc… Thus to say “Tax Records says three bedrooms, so I have to stick with three,” is not a good argument. One other thing to consider is whether the room not labeled as a bedroom had any impact on value or not. Best wishes.
The room is upstairs right next to two other bedrooms and a bathroom. Definitely directly accessible. As far as we know, the second story is original construction. The entire upstairs is without central heat and air.
County Assessor’s report counts it as a bedroom.
She said in her report that it doesn’t have a closet. When I asked for clarification from our lender’s appraisal reviewer, he said that because you have to “stoop” to reach into the closet, it’s not a real closet, therefore it’s not a real bedroom. He said that’s part of “appraisal institute standard”.
Where can I find the local code or irc about counting bedrooms? Do they apply to older houses, or only new construction?
Thanks!
Interesting. I suppose my follow-up question would be whether there is documentation of the “appraisal institute standard”. Is there a written standard the appraiser is referring to? At times we reference rules, but sometimes they aren’t really rules ,but rather tradition that has been handed down through the ages and considered as definitive. Maybe the appraiser is on to something here, but I’d like to see the reference from AI. I’d love for that to be a part of the conversation here if the reviewer / appraiser can find something definitive. Moreover, does the Appraisal Institute trump local code and IRC? I think not personally, but there may be some wisdom there. I believe I linked to the code above or at least referenced the section of the code about bedrooms. I am not sure what IRC says about closets in terms of minimum size, but I would say if a “closet” was tiny, that could be an issue. I am not so concerned about a small stoop, but I would be very concerned if the “closet” was 2-3 ft high, for example.
Thanks. I have asked for her documentation. I don’t see your link to the IRC, though. It looks like it’s just an underlined sentence. It looks like it used to be a link at one point.
I’ll let you know if I find something.
Hi Ryan,
Very informative blog post. Glad I came across it. I own an old home in East Sacramento and have had some issues getting it properly appraised. The home had 2 rooms put on as an extension in succession. No hallway etc. The method to get to the furthest room is to walk through the nearer room.
Both rooms have closets, exterior windows and doors. When we bought the home it was positioned such that both rooms were counted as bedrooms. However, now, years later, appraisers are only counting the furthest room as a bedroom indicating the nearer one, by being a “pass through” is not actually countable as such.
Is this true? If not, the loss of an official bedroom greatly hurts my value, and I need to figure out a way to appeal. Otherwise, I’ll be sad panda. 🙁
Hi Samir. Thanks for checking in. I’m glad you own in East Sacramento too. Fantastic area.
It’s hard to visualize your situation exactly. It sounds like there is a bedroom and then another “bedroom” only accessible through the first bedroom. If you really want to get specific, you can always take a video and then send me a private link so I can see what you’re talking about. Otherwise it sounds like you only have one bedroom for this set-up. It’s hard to say how that impacts your value. The loss of a bedroom can harm value, but sometimes it’s not as big of a deal. I think it depends too on how many other bedrooms you already have. For instance, there can be a bigger value difference between homes with 2 bedrooms vs. 3 bedrooms, but sometimes homes with 3 bedrooms don’t have all that much of a value difference between 4-bedroom homes. Why? Because buyers buy based on so many other factors including layout, location, condition, etc…. There is no automatic adjustment that is given for a 3-bedroom vs. a 4-bedroom house. Sometimes they sell on par, but other times there is a value difference. If there is a premium for a 4th bedroom, at times it is not just about the bedroom, but about the larger size compared to the three bedroom. I hope that’s not too much information, but I only wanted to give some background thought. Now if you are assessed at 4 bedrooms, I would recommend telling them you have only 3 bedrooms in case their formula will reduce your taxes. 🙂
I have room that is 75 square (It has a closet but I have excluded it from the measurement) It is a L shaped room not square. The walls measure 10′ X 11′
with the L shaped wall at about 5 feet. would that be considered a bedroom?
Hi Jparker. Thanks for reaching out. It’s hard to visualize what you are talking about here. On one hand you are saying 75 sq ft, but on the other hand the walls are 10’x11′. If the room dimensions are 10’x11′, the square footage would be 110′ (10 x 11). If you want, send me an email with the dimensions or a rough sketch so I can help answer your question (as best as I can obviously). Or you can take a quick YouTube clip and send me a private link (30-60 seconds please so I can maximize my time here). Glad to help. Take care.
Thank you for replying I have a floor plan of the room that may help. Please see url link:
http://i844.photobucket.com/albums/ab5/jparker_76/2015-10-02_134521_zpsleirc8gz.png
Hi Jparker. Thanks for the image. That looks like a bedroom to me, though it is definitely on the small side. Sometimes when I walk through a house I do also consider the size of other bedrooms in a house when I make the determination of what something is. For instance, I appraised a very custom home recently where all bedrooms were large, but there was one tiny room that technically met the requirements for a bedroom. This room was likely meant as a Den by the builder because of the clear size difference when compared to the other bedrooms, and in my opinion it was likely the market would see it as a Den also. However, since it was technically a bedroom, that’s what I called it (I actually said “small bedroom” in my report and on my sketch). In your case the “L” shape does make the room a bit funky here, so it may not be considered on par with other presumably larger bedrooms in your house. This one looks like it just makes it, but the appraiser is going to have to ask how buyers would see this room too. There are technical definitions so we can define something clearly, but we still need to ask how the market would see the property. I hope that helps.
Thank you for the reply the apartment is small and the other bedroom in this apartment is small also not as small as this but you can definitely fit a twin bed in this room. Thanks for the reply
Are there any requirements on the size of bed that can fit in a room. I am looking at a house where a room that is just over 70 sq’ Because one corner is a 45 degree angle and the entrance is in the opposite corner, the largest size bed that the room can accommodate is a single bed.
Hi John. I’m not aware of any bed size requirement. If anyone knows of something, speak on. If a room was only 70 sq ft, I can’t imagine a bed larger than a single or twin that would fit. I’ve seen bedrooms this small and the beds are always tiny. Thanks for the comment John.
Ryan-
I have a home in a Natomas subdivision that has an office that in the original plans could have been a bedroom if one had elected to have the builder build the bedroom instead of an office. I would like to turn it into a bedroom for the resell value of having the fourth bedroom. I know I have to get permits to put the door into opening but how do I get it qualified on paper as a fourth bedroom?
Thanks,
Isaac
Hi Isaac. Thanks for reaching out. That’s a very common scenario in Natomas or any newer subdivision for that matter. After the work is finished, call the Assessor and follow their procedures. Or better yet, call them before the work is started to ask them what they will need. A home owner recently hired me to measure his house so the Assessor would change the square footage of the house in official records. The owner had done an addition of a bedroom as well as a bathroom (with permits), but official records were never changed. In this case the owner wanted the records to show the addition and increased bed/bath count to avoid confusion when he sells in a few years. The Assessor said a sketch of the house from a certified appraiser would suffice for their records, so that’s what worked in this case. I simply measured the house and included a layout of what was there. Hopefully in your case you won’t have to hire anyone, but know that may be a possibility. I might ask them if a sketch from a licensed contractor with photos would suffice. That way you don’t have to hire anyone else, but can knock out what you need when the work is done. I imagine you can get clear direction though with just one phone call. If you don’t have it, the Sacramento County Assessor’s number is (916) 875-0700?. Best wishes.
I have a 4 room home that has a living room, kitchen, bedroom and a family room. It also has a half bath which is accessed from the family room and a laundry/full bath accessed from the bedroom. The full bath also has access to the half bath. The family room has a closet and a Murphy Bed permanently installed and has an exit door to the rear of the house. Can the family room be classified as a bedroom since it has a closet & bed? Or can it not be a bedroom since the bath must be accessed through it? If it’s a bedroom, then the half bath & full bath can only be accessed through bedrooms.
Hi Theresa. Thank you for reaching out. It’s honestly hard to visualize the layout of your house. You are welcome to email me a quick visual you draw or do a private (and quick) video on YouTube if you wish. I’m glad to help out if I can. Otherwise it sounds like your Family Room is a Family Room. There is a reason why it is called that, and if you can only access one or both of the bathrooms through that room, it doesn’t sound like a bedroom. The simply truth here is it sounds like your floor plan was designed to have this room function as a Family Room because of the bathroom set-up. I am glad to take a more detailed look if you want to email though.
I am currently renting a room that has only one exit point. I have a door and no windows. I’m assuming this isnt actually considered a bedroom. Should I contact a lawyer or tell the landlord I am going to refuse to pay rent?
Hi John. Thank you for reaching out. That does not sound like a bedroom to me by any definition since there is no egress to the exterior. I cannot give you legal advice or tell you what to do in this situation, but I wish you the very best. Happy Holidays.
I DO NOT KNOW OF ANY REQUIREMENT FOR TWO MEANS OF EGRESS AREAS….. ONLY ONE REQUIRED…. Escape: A bedroom must have one “delete other” method of egress beyond the entrance point. ……
I think we are saying the same exact thing. A bedroom should have two means of exit. One needs to be the hall door and the other can be a window or door of adequate size.
Hi Ryan,
Very informative. Thanks for all the insight.
I have a rental property in Arden Arcade originally built in 1955. Let’s call it a 2/3 bedroom and 2 full bath. The 3rd bedroom was a garage conversion in the 70s; which is my dilemma. The room meets all the bedroom requirements you’ve mentioned. And every tenant I’ve ever had has used it as a bedroom. The bonus to this “bedroom” is a laundry closet. A full size washer and dryer fit in a nicely finished closet with bi-folding doors, much like you’d see in a home with laundry in a main hallway. Taking into account the value of the third bedroom in this particular neighborhood, what would your opinion be? And would it be wise to seek a revision from the assessors office to actually list the home as 3 bedrooms?
And if you feel like settling a friendly dispute, what is more valuable: the above mentioned 3rd bedroom or the single garage it used to be? I say bedroom/living space trumps smelly garages any day. My Husband says otherwise.
Thank you again,
Paula 🙂
Hi Paula. Thanks so much for reaching out. If I had to guess, I’d say the house is in Arden Manor, but hey, that’s just a guess. There are MANY garage conversions in that area. By the way, I appreciate your patience in hearing back too as I was out of town for two weeks and just got back.
Some thoughts:
There is no one rule for what a garage conversion is worth. It really depends on the neighborhood. In Arden Manor, for instance, the garages are often only one space and there are so many conversions out there to be able to show how the market feels about them. In short, the best way to know what a conversion is worth is to find other competitive homes with conversions. Is there a price difference between a 2/2 house with a 1-car garage and the same house with a converted garage (a 3/2). Sometimes it’s a real negative for value depending on the neighborhood, though other times the conversion increases rental value, while other times it’s basically a wash (the positive value of extra square footage is balanced out by the negative of a lack of a garage). There really isn’t one answer that can apply to every property, though I would say if you are commanding higher rent for your property, then it sounds like a plus for your situation. If you are not, then the market has spoken, and it’s likely a negative. I’d be curious to hear your thoughts on that. In case it’s helpful, here is a post on conversions: https://sacramentoappraisalblog.com/2012/07/24/how-do-garage-conversions-impact-property-value/
Regarding telling the Assessor, that is a personal decision because you will be taxed on more space. Are you a fan of more taxes? 🙂 At the same time, if I was going to sell, I’d rather have Tax Records reflect what is actually there so lenders don’t freak out and automatically assume something was not permitted.
Hi Ryan,
Very informative post thank you… You stated that there needs to be two egress points, two doors or one window and one door. If the room has a door that opens to the house and another one that opens to an adjacent room would this be considered two egress points? Or does the second door have to open to outside… Please keep in mind that the adjacent room has one door to the outside as well as a window and another door to the house.
Hi Serkan. Thanks for the comment. I appreciate your patience in hearing back too as I was out of town for two weeks and just got back. The other egress point really needs to be to the outside of the house. A realistic perspective sees how a buyer or renter might use a room as a bedroom, but when we think technically and consider safety, a “bedroom” really does need an egress to the hallway and the exterior. I hope that helps.
I live in Florida and I have a room over the garage that the builder did the framing for a bathroom and walking closet along with all of the electrical and plumbing. The door to the bedroom is off a hallway so it doesn’t enter into the garage and it does follow all of the guidelines for ceiling height and has one large window. We want to finish the room so it will add an additional room and full bath to our homes square footage. My question is for it to be considered in the appraisal for an additional bedroom and full bath do I have to connect my central ac/heat to that area or can I just do stand alone or wall unit. It will only be used as a game room for us so the stand alone ac will be better for us but I want to lose equity for that reason. Thanks
Hi Lauren. Thanks for reaching out. First off, are you getting a permit? I’ll assume you are. If not, that adds an entirely different dimension to how I would answer the question. For reference, here is a post on how appraisers tend to deal with valuing a property when there are no permits on an addition: https://sacramentoappraisalblog.com/2014/11/04/what-do-appraisers-do-when-there-are-no-permits-on-an-addition/
Assuming you’ll have a permit, it really comes down to what local code allows. If you go through the permitting process and the building department lets you install a wall unit, the appraiser is not really in a place to argue it is illegal or not proper somehow. Ultimately it would probably be best for value to have CH&A since the rest of the home does have that already, but as long as local code allows you to install a different type of permanent heat source, that will likely suffice. The key is the heat source is permanent though as a plug-in space heater will not suffice.
Thank you for your reply. I am for sure pulling permits. because the electric and plumbing are already done, after i called the city for permits they said I only need one for ac/heat and one for insulation since the builder had already pulled the permits and I’m assuming they’re closed now. The home is only 3 years old. So what your saying is the ac heat source needs to be permanent to the building? My options were a portable fireplace unit for heat that I planned on leaving for the new home owners when i sold the home. Thanks for your wisdom.
Yes, it should be permanent. It should also be something that is customary for your market. This is where you might want to ask a few local real estate professionals (agents and appraisers) what they think about your heat source if you choose a wall unit or baseboard heater or something to that effect (something other than CH&A). Your building department should be able to tell you what is technically acceptable as permanent. What a blessing to have had the builder pull those permits already.
I have a question about bedroom definition. Attached to our master is a 12×10 sitting room with its own entry door (from the hall) and a 7×6 entrance between the sitting room and the bedroom. It also has its own window too the outside. The sitting room as a switched wall lamp and an outlet as well. My question: If I close the opening between the rooms with framing and drywall, is it now considered a 4th bedroom (it was sold to us as 3+ bedrooms). Do I need to add a closet? Or could a permanent wardrobe work? We are in the SF area and I want to get classified as a 4 bedroom for a higher appraisal (and better LTV for refinance). Thanks for any insights.
Hi Chuck. Thanks for reaching out. If you add a closet, it sounds like it could be a bedroom as long as the window to the exterior is an adequate size. As I mentioned above, a bedroom window can be between 24 and 44 inches from the floor, it needs at least 5.7 square feet for the opening, and it must measure no less than 24 inches high and 20 inches wide (R310.1). In short, if the window egress is too small, it really shouldn’t be classified as a bedroom. I saw this recently in an older home in a city near Sacramento. There was a room that was converted to a bedroom by the owner, but it was tiny (which I questioned whether the market would really accept the room as it was barely 70 sq ft), but most of all the egress was not adequate in size as there is no way anyone beyond a small child could exit the room in case of an emergency. If the other bedrooms in your home have closets, this room should have one too. If the rest of your home does not have closets and the market accepts that, then it would be normative for this room to not have a closet either. I would say if your home has built-in closets, this room should also.
Thanks for the follow-up here, Ryan. The window is full-size like others in the house, so this won’t be an issue. On closets, is there a minimum size that qualifies for appraisal purposes?
Thanks again, Chuck
My pleasure, Chuck. There is not a minimum size standard as far as I know. I think it’s normative for homes to have about the same size of closets (besides the master). Thus I would recommend you consider making the closet about the same size as other rooms so there is uniformity. If you really want to go the extra mile, you can put a quick call in to the building department and ask them if there is a minimum closet size (the local building department is the definitive source for standards in your market). Otherwise assuming your home was built with permits and to code, I would say to trust the size of your other closets as a guide for what you do in this other space. Best wishes.
Hi Ryan,
What a great blog you have! Learning a lot here.
I have a tri-level condo rental property, which includes a storefront type of space on the first level. This storefront space features a front door (partially made of glass) and also a front window that cannot be opened. However there is another door entrance that connects indoors to the hallway by the stairs. I’m wondering if you know if I can rent this room out as a bedroom. I know its not a normal type of home and the shared bathroom would be upstairs on the second floor. Any response would be appreciated. Thanks!
Hi Alex. Thanks for stopping by. It sounds like you have a unique property with a mixture of commercial and residential. I’m really not sure if you can rent out anything on the commercial level (it sounds like that’s what the bottom level is). The best source would probably be your local market. You might want to check in with a reputable property manager or local authorities where relevant. I do wonder in the first place though if this was intended as a bedroom or if it was intended as a commercial storage space of some sort. Sorry I could not give you an answer, but I think that’s the best thing in light of your unique property. Best wishes.
Thanks Ryan. It is a Live/Work condo, so not very ordinary. I will check with the county about this. Best!
What happens if the lease states that the apartment contains two bedrooms, but their is no closet – is that legal?
Hi Cynthia. I’m really not qualified to give legal advice since I am an appraiser and not an attorney. I wish I could have helped. Best wishes.
I would be interested in your thoughts/comments on market expectations regarding reasonable bath access for a bedroom classification. In other words, is it a legitimate bedroom if a person must travel through the dining room, kitchen and family room to access a bathroom?
(Outhouses excluded)
Thanks
Hi Mike. Thanks for reaching out. It’s honestly not easy to visualize exactly what you are talking about. I have an idea, but I’m not sure if we are seeing the same thing or not. You can always email me a drawing or photos if you wish for a more detailed response. Most of the time one does not have to travel through so many rooms to access a bathroom, though at times there is a bathroom tucked away in one corner of the house, so I can understand this happens. I would not exclude a bathroom as being a bathroom because it is tucked away, though if the layout is odd I would have to consider if there is any functional obsolescence.
We live in a 3 bed house. But due to the person i care for lives downstairs in the living room is that not classed as a bedroom. She’s only been awarded for 2 beds on LHA. When there are 3 of us in the property. But due to her health conditin/ Disability,she lives downstairs in the living room in a hospital bed and commode. How is that not classed as a 3rd bedroom?
Hi Ray. Thank you so much for reaching out. I know when a property has three bedrooms or just two, but this sounds like there are some other issues going on. Is there maybe a technicality where the person has to actually live in the bedroom instead of the Living Room? Or would they only count two rooms for patients since one room is for a caregiver? Unfortunately it’s really outside of the scope of what I do to even begin to tackle this issue. I would certainly ask the decision makers in your situation why things have happened as they have. Maybe they can provide some insight or direction as to how you can find a remedy. I hope things work out well for you. Best wishes.
Hello! Your article was very informative- thank you. I live in Placer County and just bought my first house about a year ago. It’s listed as a 4 bedroom BUT there is a 10X10 feet room off the kitchen with a big beautiful window and it fits all the requirements stated in your article sans the closet. The main entry to it is a normal sized doorway but it’s a pocket door. The owner before me used it as a dining room but the main room off the kitchen can be used as the main dining room (as we are now). It is definitely a separate room- a den at the very least. I have two questions: 1) Do you know if in Placer County a bedroom has to have a closet and 2) Would listing the house as having a den or a 5th bedroom raise the value? We are looking into refinancing.
Hi Jenny. Thanks for reaching out. Being that it is located next to the kitchen, it sounds like a Den or Dining Room just be the nature of the location. If it had a closet I don’t think buyers would be opposed to maybe using it as a bedroom if they really had to do so, but still they might think of it functionally as a Den because of the location alone. Usually listings like yours say something like “4-5” bedrooms in the marketing. That tends to be a tip-off that the 5th “bedroom” is not quite the same as the others. Many times there isn’t much value difference between 4 and 5 bedrooms, so it’s not like there is a common value adjustment to give. Keep in mind other homes with a similar square footage to yours probably have mostly 4 or 5 bedrooms total, and buyers will probably weigh layout, conditions, upgrades, etc… just as they would bedroom count. Many families can absolutely make due with a 4-bed home with the right layout rather than something that has technically five bedrooms but with a bad layout. If I were you I would likely put “4-5” in MLS to show there is a 5th area and that 5th area does have potential to be a bedroom at some point. I don’t have Placer County code in front of me, but I would be absolutely shocked if it did not mandate closets for new construction. 🙂
We are currently renovating our home in Michigan. We have baseboard heaters that were at one time run by propane. We no longer use them and heat our home with a pellet stove. It does well to heat the home (1 floor), including the bedrooms (provided doors are left open). In renovating we have come across many things – including several layers of walls in one room. The baseboard heaters are making this VERY difficult as they run the full length of walls, and even into closets. Most of the covers are missing and/or broken and even the “aluminum fins” are smashed together in most areas.
My question(s) – should we leave them in place and fix them? This would seem very costly and not something we have budgeted in. We do not intend to use them again, but have been told if we even intend to sell the home, we might want to keep them. They take up a great deal of space and are quite unsightly. Since we don’t use them, could we just remove the system? We do have another heat source, however that source does not vent into other rooms. It’s more radiant heat.
Sorry this is lengthy, I’ve tried looking multiple places and can’t seem to find anything.
Hi Carla. Thanks for reaching out. I appreciate you sharing your story. There are two factors as far as I see: 1) Heat: You want to be sure your house is adequately heated. It sounds like you have that covered, so that’s a good thing; 2) Permanence of Heat Source: From a lending standpoint it’s important that the heat source is deemed permanent. There really isn’t one type of heater that fits this definition for every location because the market in different areas expects/accepts different types of heaters. I would just recommend being sure the pellet stove is customary for your area and deemed okay as a main heat source in the eyes of the city/county as well as the real estate community. You might consider giving the city/county a call and maybe even talking with a local agent, loan officer, and appraiser (just to be sure there are no financing hang-ups. I just wouldn’t want you to harm your ability to obtain financing as needed. I don’t really have an answer for you on whether a pellet stove works for you since I’m not in your market. For instance, I live in a suburban tract neighborhood in Northern California and a pellet stove wouldn’t cut it in my area since it is definitely not customary. However, that same pellet stove in the foothills an hour or so away in my area would be just fine.
I have a question about an upcoming insurance inspection,… We built the house with the maximum number of bedrooms allowed. In the master bedroom there is a door that opens up into another big room seperated with a full wall (no door just an entry way) into two smaller rooms. we built those rooms with a space for storage in mind but, as of recently we have made those two rooms into “bedrooms”. There is no closet, no dresser, basically just a bed in each room and a couple organizer stations. Each room has a small “crank out” window. And again I’d like to add that to gain access to this area you have to go through the master bedroom. So my question is , will they consider these rooms as “bedrooms”? I would appreciate your thoughts on this situation. thank you
Hi Carly. Thanks for reaching out. It’s really hard to say what an insurance inspection will yield as their rules might be different. They may or may not follow IRC definitions for a bedroom. For instance, some parties might say, “If it’s used as a bedroom it’s a bedroom as far as our purposes are concerned.” That’s why I cannot say for certain what will happen in your case (though I hear your point on having to walk through the master to get to these two areas). You might consider drawing their attention to the layout and such to build your case these are not bedrooms (if that is what you are trying to do). If your city or county does not consider them bedrooms either, that may help. Though if your city or county considers them permitted bedrooms, that may be the answer you get.
I live in South Carolina, and we purchased a home with a garage that was converted into a bedroom with a closet and a full bath with a shower. It is heated with electric base board heat that is separate from the rest of the house and cooled by a window unit. At the time of purchase, the appraisal counted the converted room as a 4th bedroom and counted the bath as the 3rd bath. 4 years after purchase, we refinanced and had an appraisal that counted it as a 4th bed and 3rd bath. This month we applied for a home equity line of credit and the appraisal just came in and we have lost over 200 sq ft. and he is saying that it is only a 3 bdr., 2 bath, and gave us some very low credit for a “utility room”. This to me is crazy and is resulting in a loss of thousands of dollars. What can I do? The garage bedroom bath are through the kitchen, passes through the heated and cooled laundry room/mudroom. It also has a separate entrance to the backyard deck and two windows.
Hi SC Appraisal Woes. I’m sorry to hear about your situation. Was the garage conversion permitted? Does the conversion feel like high quality work where it is similar to the rest of the house? It’s hard to say who is right in this situation. If there is no permit, I can understand why an appraiser would be hesitant to call this a legitimate bedroom. But if there is a permit and the area simply still feels like a glorified garage instead of like the rest of the house I can also understand why an appraiser would treat the area separately from the original footprint of the house. I’m not in tune with your market or what your property is like exactly, so it’s hard to render an opinion. I realize it’s frustrating to have an appraiser not include this space, but if you step back and look at the value, is the value much different from what is likely reasonable for your property since it no longer has a garage? You might have a situation where the value was butchered (far too low), but at the same time there are situations where we might not agree with the methodology but the value is more or less reasonable. Any thoughts? Thanks again for reaching out.
Hi Ryan, I’ve read this blog from start to finish and truly appreciate the info. I have a 21-year-old split foyer. Up the stairs takes you to the typical living room, dining room, kitchen, and hallway to bedrooms (and two full baths). Shortly after we bought this house, my husband took out the wall between the two front bedrooms to make one large room. At one end, he carved out a 3 x 6 closet that opens into the hallway for a laundry room. Going down the stairs, to the right after about a 4 ft hallway is the family room and to the left of the staircase is a 2 car garage. When he moved the laundry upstairs, he moved the furnace and hot water heater to the garage and built a 10 x 10 Jacuzzi full bathroom (shares walls with the family room and the garage).
My husband passed away a few months ago and I’m now trying to decide whether to keep my house or sell, and if I decide to sell, how do I get it back to being considered a 3-bedroom house. I believe people would appreciate the upstairs laundry, so I’m trying to figure out whether there’s an easy way to convert my family room into a third bedroom. There are 3 windows across the front of the family room (the middle one’s about 36×36) – so I think I’d have to change them a bit to make them closer to the floor so they’d be at the 44” level. They’d also have to be a bit taller since the window actually only opens about 18”. Do you think changing out the windows would solve the egress problem? I believe that’s the only issue which keeps it from qualifying as a bedroom. Your thoughts?
Hi Susan. Thank you for reaching out. First and foremost, I’m so sorry to hear about your loss. Unfortunately it’s very difficult to give advice in this situation since it’s not easy to visualize what the layout actually looks like. I appreciate your description, but I think this is something someone would have to see. If you are considering selling you might consider talking with a local reputable real estate agent as well as an appraiser. For converting back though, you may need to actually consult a licensed contractor. I suppose with all the information you get you can weigh whether it makes financial sense to stay, sell, convert back to a 3-bedroom, etc… I wish I was able to provide something more definitive. Blessings to you.
Thanks Ryan, I appreciate your thoughts.
What About an apt like a suite style. There are 3 “rooms” and two bathrooms but the 1 bedroom has no windows and is the smallest of the three is that still considered a bedroom or more like a walk in closet
Hi Victor. Thanks for reaching out. Honestly, it’s difficult to answer your question because I don’t have a layout in front of me. I am concerned about the lack of windows though, so that sounds like a tell that this is not a bedroom. But that’s just me giving my two cents without seeing the property. On a practical level, could this be rented out to three single people? Or would it be an awkward situation because one of these areas is really just a master retreat instead of a functional bedroom? Best wishes.
Could it possibly lower my property taxes if my rooms did not have closets? If the rooms did not have closets does that mean that the appraisal district would compare my home to other one bedroom homes? Thanks.
Hi Dick. I think it depends on the situation. If the market looks at your rooms as bedrooms (despite technically not having closets), then arguing that your house has fewer bedrooms probably doesn’t carry much weight. As a home owner I suppose it couldn’t hurt to reach out and bring up this point, but if every other house in the neighborhood has this same issue, you’re probably barking up a tree that will yield little fruit so to speak. Best wishes.
Hello, after reading all of your comments, I have yet to find my answer..so here it goes. Two years ago i bought an older cape cod home with 3 bedrooms, 1 full and 2 half bath in West Virginia. However, after the home was assessed, due to fha loan, it only assessed at 2 bedrooms because the only full bath is in my master bedroom. The master bedroom is the only access to the full bath, so it’s considered a den of sorts? does this sound correct? I am already going to refinance my loan to a 15yr morgage and have to getc the house inspected and assessed as again, so I want to make sure my home is a 3 bedroom to get the most value. Any advice for me?
Hi Ashley. Thanks for reaching out. It’s difficult to answer definitively since I haven’t seen your house and I don’t know your market, but it sounds like you are dealing with a 2-bedroom house because of the functional obsolescence. If I was appraising a property like this I would very likely consider it a 2-bedroom unit with a Den because of the bathroom access issue (functional obsolescence). Remember, it is not just a 2-bedroom because there is an extra Den. Yet it is not quite a 3-bedroom either (at least a traditional 3-bedroom). I suppose if someone wanted to consider it a 3-bedroom with functional obsolescence, we could probably end up with the same value, but the key is this is definitely not a regular 3-bedroom home, which is likely why I would defer to saying two bedrooms in most cases. I can imagine both buyers and renters wouldn’t likely pay the same amount for a layout like this compared to a traditional 3-bedroom layout. Advice? If it is possible to make access from another area of the house too, that would be great (preferably a hallway). Keep in mind Fannie Mae collects data from appraisal reports, so if an appraiser previously listed your house as two bedrooms, Fannie Mae knows it already. Even if a new appraiser comes in and says 3 bedrooms, this may raise a red flag in the system so the lender at least asks the new appraiser what the deal is with the bedroom count discrepancy. I hope that helps. Any thoughts?
For any onlookers, here is some information on Fannie Mae’s data collection that begun in recent years: https://sacramentoappraisalblog.com/2015/01/20/what-you-need-to-know-about-fannie-maes-collateral-underwriter/
The house we are renting and thinking of buying is listed as having 4 bedrooms, but that 4th room is floored with tile to match the living space (not carpet like the bedrooms), has no closet, has a built in desk and bookshelf, and French doors leading to the hall. It meets all the requirements in the article, but definitely doesn’t seem to fit in with the rest of the bedrooms. Someone could probably use it as a bedroom but they’d have to cover the French doors with something for privacy. Is this really a bedroom or will it appraise as an office? Thanks!!
Hi Rachel. Thanks for the comment. It sounds like this is a potential bedroom, but the lack of closet and french doors make it more of an office (not to mention the built-ins). I usually call rooms like this an office, but I note the cost to turn it into a bedroom isn’t that much. In many tract neighborhoods in my area there really isn’t much of a value difference between set-ups like this and traditional four bedrooms. There is not one appraisal / valuation rule that would apply to all situations and in all locations, but the truth is this property has 3+ bedrooms instead of just 3. This means it doesn’t just compare to 3-bedroom units. The flooring being the same as the living room is not relevant for considering whether this is a bedroom or not. I cannot say for sure what it will appraise as, but I usually handle these as 3+ bedrooms and they are often marketed in my market as “3-4 bedrooms.”
Thanks!!
I had an egress window that used to open to outside wall. Then I added a screened porch to the outside wall encompassing that window. And now I am replacing the screens with glass panes.
Is my egress window (and bedroom) going to be okay per code??
Hi John. Thanks for the question. I think it’s probably best for your local building department to lend insight since code may vary from area to area. I know this wouldn’t fly in some of my local areas, but maybe it’s different in your city / county. You can always call up the building department and ask them questions (without giving them your name or address). It might be helpful to at least know what they say before moving forward with the work.
This reply is a breath of fresh air to counteract all the insanity of some real estate agents (and house TV shows) repeating the misconception that a room needs to have a closet in order to be called a bedroom. Egress and dimensions in every direction are the guiding factors.
Thanks so much Patricia. 🙂 There are many factors to consider. We cannot just impose a “no closet = no bedroom” rule on every house in every market. We have to consider local code AND look at other items mentioned above. Thanks again.
Thank you so much for this thread. I am a realtor in Georgia and I am currently working with a client on this issue. He has a bonus room up stairs that he wants to turn into a bedroom. It does have a window and a lockable door. It does not have a closet however. The house is a 3/2.5 and he wants to make it a 4/2.5 so he can try and get more money upon the sale. He has already contacted the county and they made the change of the bonus room into a “bedroom” on county record. Is that all that he needs to do?
Hi Tim. Thanks for reaching out. It’s a good thing if the county says 4 bedrooms. I would hope this room would meet all the requirements as listed above. Beyond these things though there is a perception issue where we have to ask what the appraiser, real estate community, and market is going to say about this space. If the county says it’s a bedroom, meets all the requirements to be one, and it feels like a bedroom, you are probably going to be okay. But if for some reason it feels really weird because of the layout or there is a functional issue of some sort, the market might not really respond to say it’s a bedroom. If closets are customary in your market, you might want to add one if you really think a buyer is going to use it as a bedroom. Any thoughts?
The bonus room is the only upstairs area to the house so it does make the location a little off. But it does meet the size requirements that you listed above so its going to pretty much be a hit or miss depending on the appraiser and buyers. Im going to give the seller the options and let him know what “could” happen and let them choose to see if they want to put the money into making a closet in the room or not. This was EXTREMELY helpful for I am new to the industry. Your help is much appreciated.
I’m glad it helped. It is different to have just one room upstairs. Assuming there is a closet you might consider this a bedroom, but the key is what buyers think about the set-up. I imagine some buyers might not like it because it is less traditional, but maybe others would. Honestly though sometimes there is little difference in value between a 3 and 4-bedroom house. Assuming two homes are the same size and one had three bedrooms and the other has four, the four-bedroom isn’t necessarily automatically worth more. I find comps all the time that are similar in size but sold at the same level. The temptation is to automatically impose a value adjustment or price premium on a 4-bedroom when that may not exist. The proof is in the market thankfully. At the end of the day let’s just ask the question, “Are the 4 bedroom units selling for more or not?”
Would a door to an attached garage count as an “exit” for egress? The window situation in one of our rooms doesn’t meet that standard but it has a door to the garage.
Hi Cheryl. The egress really needs to be to the exterior of the house. In my county a bedroom is not allowed to open up directly to the garage also. Any room that does so is not considered a bedroom. That’s just for my area though because of code. I wonder what your area says in that regard for code?
How can we easily find this definition for a local County? Is it in building code? Or are there common sections in building codes that you can point me to?
Thank you this is very helpful
Hi C. I might recommend giving your county a call and asking them. Hopefully they have something that is spelled out clearly. I would talk with the building department. I would imagine they would have something written in code, but at the same time they might not get that specific. You can probably poke around online, but I imagine you might have to actually pick up the phone because it’s not always easy to find something in code.
Hi Ryan,
This blog is very helpful! My master bedroom has a door to a retreat room which has both big windows and a good sized closet, but does not have a separated entry door. Recently I want to open a door to the hallway, so that it can be accessed directly and considered as a bedroom.
My question is: do I have to close out the door between the master bedroom and this new bedroom in order for it to be considered as a bedroom? In other words, if one bedroom has an optional access door to another bedroom, can it still be considered as a bedroom, although the door can be locked from both sides?
Hi Larry. I don’t think I would say a room was not a bedroom if it had a door in the wall between bedrooms. However, it would be odd for most markets, so we would consider it functional obsolescence. Moreover, what about the master bedroom having a closet?
On a totally different note, keep in mind if you are on a septic system, your local city / county may only allow a certain number of bedrooms based on the size of the septic tank. I just wanted to mention that for the sake of conversation (and any onlookers).
Ryan?
Thank you so much for the quick response! The Master is already a huge suite with everything. My house in Las Vegas is under city sewer and no bedroom limits.
Another question is:
1. when doing appraisal, if you see one more bedroom than on the county record, do you actually consider this as a bedroom and add value accordingly?
2. I’m just adding a door from the room to Hallway, any thoughts if permit is required? I guess is county by county basis?
3. In general, who is responsible to change the tax assessment record? Can I tell County that the record is wrong and I have 5bed instead of 4?
Thank you!
Hi Larry. No problem.
1) It depends on what is there. Sometimes an owner calls something a “bedroom” and it’s really just a glorified closet or tiny office nook (or something that is clearly not a bedroom). At other times Tax Records is obviously wrong for whatever reason. In my area public records certainly doesn’t nail bedroom and bathroom count every time, so it’s okay to recognize value for something if it is not recorded in official records. However, if it was not permitted that could be a big deal for value. Keep in mind though the difference in bedroom count may or may not impact value much at all. For instance, the difference between a 1 and 2-bedroom home is probably substantial, but the difference between a 3-bedroom and 4-bedroom home may not be too discernible when we start lining up examples of sales (assuming these homes are the same size of course). Or the difference between 5 and 6 bedrooms may not be a big deal for value. Thus it’s a good reminder that one extra bedroom doesn’t necessarily mean the house is all of the sudden worth more.
2) I’m not the best source to answer that question.
3) In my area owners let the county know because otherwise they would never know since the county does not ever come in homes. I find some owners do not let the county know anything because they do not want their taxes to increase. Yet others let the county know about square footage or bed/bath discrepancies. For instance, a friend had a bathroom added with a permit and the county never recorded it. Moreover, his square footage was actually larger than what it said in official records. Thus one year before he went to sell he had me come out to measure the property so he could turn in the sketch to the county (that included the bed / bath count also). The county in my area tends to want something from an appraiser, but it may not be that way everywhere obviously.
If a room was built for an office but want to use as a bedroom, and has all 4 items that was stated .Can it be used as a bedroom?
Hi Michelle. I would be curious what the difference was if it was built for an office. That part intrigues me and brings pause as to what this really is. I would defer to the city / county on this issue. Basically if they would call it a bedroom, it would be hard to argue against that. But if for some reason the city or market participants would not count it because of a weird functional floorplan, septic tank requirements, or something else, then it wouldn’t be prudent to call it one. Otherwise if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it’s hopefully a duck.
Hello. My daughter is currently living in an apartment with two other co-tenants. The other two are a couple and use the larger bedroom which is windowed, while my daughter has a room to herself which does not have a window nor a closet. The bedrooms are situated on the upper level of a two level loft style dwelling. The building is a converted hotel which is now used as a rental apartment building. My question to you is; In Ontario, if a dwelling is advertised as a two bedroom dwelling, do both bedrooms have to have windows and closets. The room my daughter uses has only one door, no windows and no ventilation. Not only am I concerned for her safety, I am also concerned for her health since the heat is not regulated per room. What exactly is the law for such an arrangement.
Hi Colin. Thank you for reaching out. Unfortunately I do not know the answer to your question because it is a legal one. I’m not sure what can and cannot be advertised. You might want to reach out to an attorney or for starters you can maybe contact an apartment association in your area. I know my area has a state apartment association that might be able to answer a question like this.
Hi I live in a two story house and the other half of the house is part way under ground and there is a bedroom down there with one door and two windows a closet and a bathroom in the room and my new landlord is trying to say it’s not a room and we can’t sleep in there with our bed but it doesn’t make sense cause it is made for someone to live in the room . So I was wondering if he is wrong and I can legally live in this room or if he is just trying to get me out of there ???? And by the way the room meets every requirement on this blog . I would really like to know thank you
Hi Danny. Thanks for the comment. It gets a little tricky to answer your question since below-grade spaces come in all sorts of different sizes and qualities. Some below-grade area is definitely built for living space and considered as such in the market, but other below-grade space is janky at best. I actually wrote a post on whether a basement can be considered living space from an appraisal standpoint, and in short my answer is “it depends”. https://sacramentoappraisalblog.com/2014/05/27/can-a-basement-be-consdered-square-footage/
In your case I cannot say what is legal and who is right or wrong because I don’t know the specific layout or even the market. The questions I would ask are: 1) Does local code allow occupancy down there? This is a critical question and the trump card for everything really.; 2) Is there a permanent heat source in the below-grade area? Keep in mind adequate living space should have a permanent heat source. If there is nothing like this, it’s probably not far-fetched to have a landlord ask a tenant to not sleep there.; and 3) Are you paying more to rent the house because of the basement area? This is a practical question because if your landlord is charging you for an additional bedroom but then telling you not to sleep there, that might be a problem for most renters to be paying for something you are being told not to use. Out of curiosity I might google the address of where you live and see how many bedrooms were advertised in the past. For instance, if there are two upstairs, but you find several previous listings that advertised the house as 3 bedrooms because of the basement, then I would be curious to hear what your landlord says. In other words, if the landlord is trying to market the property as a 3-bedroom but telling you to get out of there because it’s only 2, something doesn’t add up.
Hi I’m buying a home with windows that are 34″ wide total with the window opening right to left. With the window open it’s only 17″ of open space is that window size still ok for egress or does the window need to be 20″ of opening with the window open? Thanks
Hi Kerri. Thanks for asking. You know, I’m actually not certain if there needs to be 20″ of open space or not. I know I’d need that much space or more, but that’s just me. 🙂 In this case I would defer to someone else on that. I just know the dimensions above as I mentioned in the post. Unfortunately the link I provided originally is now broken, but I imagine you can find something specific about International Residential Code on their website. You might consider contacting your local building department too to see what they say. Sorry I couldn’t be more help.
1. To be counted as square footage, it must be heated and cooled, right?
2. We have the problem in our area (Middle TN) of people listing homes as 4 or 5 bedroom when the septic is rated for 3 BR.
Are these national standards?
Thanks! Dan
P.S. Great info above!
Hi Dan. Thanks for the comment.
1) Yes, there must be a permanent heat source. Of course depending on the market and local code, what that heat source is might vary. For example, a wall heater or central heat are going to be fine probably anywhere, but a pellet stove isn’t going to fly in the suburbs because that isn’t acceptable in the ‘burbs. However, it might be totally fine in the mountains because that is what is acceptable there. AC is not necessary, though clearly buyers will probably want it.
2) I hear that problem in my market too where the septic is built for 3 bedrooms, but there are 4 bedrooms in the house. Yeah, that might lead to some problems.
Both of these issues would be something where local code would be the trump card. I would definitely defer to local code rather than look for national standards.
I hope that helps.
Informative article!! I own a funky-layouted rowhome which is classified as a three bedroom, but I’m not sure which rooms classify as bedrooms. The master bed has a tiny room attached to it with a double window and two small closets (you have to walk through the master to get to this room). It’s got a vent for AC and heating.
There is a room on the ground level with a window and closet, but also a door to the basement.
There is another room adjacent to the above room with a window and a closet, but that room has a door to the back alley.
There is also a finished basement with no window or closet but has access to a bilco door to the outside. You just have to walk through a small unfinished portion of the basement to get to it.
Can you tell me once and for all which rooms, other than the master, qualify as the second and third bedrooms?
Hi Britany. Thanks so much for reaching out. Wow, that does sound funky. Honestly, it is really difficult to say without walking through the house. I will say just because public records classifies something as having three bedrooms does not necessarily mean that is what is actually there. I just wanted to mention that because sometimes records are not correct (it’s best to not consider them the definitive authority). Anyway, clearly the main bedroom is a bedroom. I wouldn’t classify the other space as a bedroom since you have to walk through the main room to get to it. Though technically if it met all the other requirements to be a bedroom, I can see some appraisers maybe calling it a bedroom with functional obsolescence. The other room on the ground level might be a good candidate, though it sounds interesting that this one room has access to the basement. To me that’s not a deal killer to be considered a bedroom, but if this room was not functional because of the basement access, it’s hard to imagine it is a bedroom. In terms of the room in the basement, that gets tricky because usually basements are not considered living area (or bedrooms). Sometimes they can be, but most of the time they aren’t. Here’s an article with further information. https://sacramentoappraisalblog.com/2014/05/27/can-a-basement-be-consdered-square-footage/
If I have a sprinkler system do I have to have two egress to the outside?
Hi Mike. That’s a great question. While I am not an expert on sprinklers, I have never heard of the existence of a sprinkler system negating the need for two ways to escape. What if the sprinkler system failed too? There could be some real danger without two methods of egress.
Hi there, we live in a live to work unit where the bottom level is office space, second level is kitchen, living room, bathroom and 3 rd level is bedrooms laundry and bathrooms. There are no doors to outside on 3rd level, and there are 3 windows – one in laundry room the opening to it is only 8 inches, although the window itself is much larger, the same window is in the spare bedroom, and in the master bedroom the window is larger but does not open at all. Is that allowed? Than you
Hi Ray. Thanks for reaching out. Sorry for the delay in response too as I took a break over this past week. Anyway, it’s hard to give one sweeping opinion about whether the window in your unit is okay or not since I have not seen it in person and I may not know your local market either. I would recommend comparing what you have to your local code because that is the most important element here. It is definitely okay that there is not a door. I am concerned if you do not have egress beyond 8 inches though. That doesn’t sound like enough to me, though I’ll defer to your local building department.
Hi Im selling my house I have finish basement and that’s where my bedrooms are. The appraisal people are coming to take pictures and ask us to removed the beds. But why? and is that a usual thing?They told me different bank have different rules Really?
Hi Mrslance. Thanks for the comment. I’m not sure what you mean by “the appraisal people” because it seems odd that an appraiser would ask you to remove the bedroom from a basement. An appraiser is not there to enforce code or anything like that, so that’s a bit of a wonder. Yet if you are talking about a Realtor or home stager, I can understand if they have an opinion about how to best market a home and know what is going to help make a house stand out. I can imagine some banks view basements as non-habitable space, though appraisers still really aren’t in the business of asking people to remove beds and such. Yet if a bank is very stringent on having beds down there, and the appraiser knows this already because he/she has worked with the bank, ,then the appraiser could actually be giving a friendly heads-up to help save you time and money. Still though I am puzzled and I think this deserves some follow-up. I would recommend asking your loan officer if this is necessary. See what the loan officer and/or lender says first before doing anything. If the bank you are working with is really anal about this, then you may have to do the dance so to speak. But if the bank is not, then maybe the appraiser needs to relax on making this request. Keep me posted with what you find. Thank you again for the comment.
Hi,
My sister and I are in the process of buying a house and the basement is finished. We are looking to put a couple walls up to make part of the basement a bedroom. Our realtor told us that as long as we have an egress window in the basement that it doesn’t specifically need to be in the room as long as their are 2 doors to the room and one leads to the area with the egress window. Can you please give us your thoughts on this to confirm that we could still call that a bedroom?
Hi Maggie. Thanks for reaching out. First off, just because the basement has a partial conversion does not mean it is going to be considered a bedroom or even count in the square footage. It might simply be best to refer to the area as a partially converted basement instead of something else. In case it’s relevant, here’s a post I wrote on whether we can consider a basement as square footage: https://sacramentoappraisalblog.com/2014/05/27/can-a-basement-be-consdered-square-footage/
Regarding the egress, a bedroom on ground level needs direct egress to the exterior of the house to be considered a bedroom. This direct egress can be a window of adequate size or a door. It is not good enough for a bedroom door on the ground level to open up to a different room which then has a direct egress to the outside. Thus if you have a situation in the basement where you have to exit a door from this converted room and then you have to exit an additional door or window in the basement, it just doesn’t sound legit to me to be considered a bedroom. I hope I’m understanding you correctly. If you have any follow-up thoughts, please chime in. I’m always very happy to have conversation.
We’ve converted a portion of a garage into a 15’x10′ room. It qualifies to be a room per the criteria you listed here. Now, we’re planning to refinance to convert FHA to conventional loan, in the hope of removing PMI. My hesitation is, we did the renovations without a permit, although all work done were per regulations. Will I be able to have it considered as an added room when the property is appraised?
Hi Chris. Thanks for reaching out. In many cases non-permitted work doesn’t get included in the value, but sometimes it does. Here is a post I wrote on the subject to help talk through some of the main issues to consider with non-permitted work: https://sacramentoappraisalblog.com/2016/10/25/the-problem-with-non-permitted-additions-in-real-estate/ Have a look and let me know if you have any questions. Part of the issue comes down to where the property is located (a lack of permits matters more in some areas), the quality of workmanship, the lender involved, and the appraiser involved in the transaction too. There is no black and white answer to give when there are a lack of permits because there are so many moving parts. I talk through some of these in the post I linked to, so hopefully that will help a bit.
One more thing. You have to remember that while you added some space, you also removed garage space too. Thus even if value were given for the addition, there is maybe some value removed from having lesser garage space now.
The 20 year old single family home we own shows 3 bedrooms in county records and has been advertised as a 3 bedroom home in the past 2 transactions. But during a recent appraisal for a refi, the appraiser called the 3 bedroom a den because it doesn’t have a closet and it has french glass doors as entrance to the room. As per you Blog, the room satisfies all 4 criteria to be classified a bedroom. Is there a way to ensure this doesn’t happen again? Do I have to get a built in closet with an extra drywall? If I do, will I need a permit? It seems rather unfair because it is a good sized room, situated right next to a full bath, large window for egress with smoke detector in the room. No modifications that require permits have been done to the home.
Hi Sabrina. I think when there is a room that has french doors and no closet, it’s often called a Den option from the builder instead of a Bedroom. Being that the builder probably built it as a Den instead of a Bedroom, that might be a clue into what we ought to call it. In that regard I can see it labeled either way. I completely get what you are saying though, and I think it’s safe to say the most proper comparison is likely still a traditional 3-bedroom because this is not a class 2-bedroom home because it clearly has another room. I mention that because for the sake of comps we probably don’t want to compare your home to a smaller 2-bedroom home that really does not have a separate Den / Bed. If you are worried about this issue, maybe add a closet and add a traditional door. The reality is if your house has this set-up, there could be a bit of a negative reaction for some buyers because of the lack of a closet. Before doing anything though, first I would look at the appraisal itself. Despite being called a 2-Bedroom home, did the appraiser discount the value because of it? Was there any negative adjustment? If not, then maybe just keep it as is if it is working well for you. As far as permits go, I am not the person to answer that question. Hope that helps.
Hi Ryan,
I am trying to buy a house that is listed as 2 bedrooms with the second bedroom having double glass doors to the dining room and single glass door to the living room and also has the only doorway to the back yard – it has a closet but it doesn’t feel like it should be classed as a bedroom – any thoughts – hope your knee is feeling better – my hubby had to have both knees operated on
Regards
Sam
Hi Sam. Thanks so much for the kind words. My knee is so much better actually. It’s been a good wake-up call for me to get my act together too in terms of getting in shape. I hope your husband is okay too.
It’s honestly hard to visualize the room. You are welcome to draw the layout and then send me an email if you wish. That might be easier to answer. Otherwise it sounds like it could be a bedroom, but it does have some oddities (opening up to the Dining Room and having the only door to the outside). I think the glass doors are also strange – particularly the double glass doors. I wish I had a definitive answer for you. All I can say is it sounds awkward for now and I can understand why you are questioning things. Feel free to send me a visual if you wish as that might help.
Hello Ryan,
My question is for appraisal reasons. Can I use a few sheets hung from floor to ceiling to act as a wall to separate two rooms? When I brought the house 10 years ago it was sold and marketed as a 4-bed room house. It was truly a 4-bedroom house. I had the common wall between the master and the bed room on the other side taken down to make a larger master. Both rooms have closet(s), egress windows to the outside (back yard), and doors leading into the hallway, both rooms are at least 110 sf.
Maybe I should add I’m in San Joaquin county if that makes a difference.
Hi Bobbie. Thanks for stopping by. I appreciate the question too. An appraiser is very unlikely to consider this a 4-bedroom house if you hang a few sheets. It would really need a legitimate wall and probably be returned back to its original state to be considered a 4th bedroom. Keep in mind though from a value perspective you have a house that can be converted back to a 4-bedroom because you have the space, but you also have a house with a very larger master suite. This means you likely have an edge compared to other 3-bedroom homes without the aforementioned features.
Great job.
Thanks. 🙂
I have a question. I’m in Michigan and we are looking into buying a house. It is currently marketed as a 4 bedroom house. However, It has 2 legitimate bedrooms on the entry level (they also converted the dining room into a “bedroom”, however it has an exterior door and the main entrance has no door, was covered by a curtain. We would convert it back to a dining room). It also has 2 bedrooms in the basement (not walkout). These two bedrooms both have egress and seem to meet all requirements to be “bedrooms”. My question… what would be the value difference between a legitimate 4 bedroom ranch, and the 4 bedroom ranch in my scenario, given all other variables are the same? How much is it devalued for those 2 bedrooms being below grade?
Thank you so much.
Hi Billy. Thanks for the comment. You are asking a really good question, but unfortunately I don’t have a really good answer. Why? Because the answer can only be found in your local market. If this type of layout is very common you’re going to see many sales as examples. We can then compare these sales to other more traditional above-grade 4-bed homes. Is there a price difference? The answer is really going to vary from market to market depending on what buyers in the market expect. I actually wrote a blog post recently about 2 vs 3 beds and an appraiser from the Midwest chimed in to talk about how in his market there was very little difference in value between rooms above and below-grade because it was so common to see full bedrooms in the basement. Yet in my area it could be a much bigger deal for value because it’s not something we see all the time. This just goes to show how different markets might not respond to issues the same way. Here is his comment for reference. https://sacramentoappraisalblog.com/2017/11/08/when-a-home-is-almost-three-bedrooms-but-technically-only-two/#comment-108939
Being that you probably have seen many homes in the market, what do you think as a buyer? How much less if any would you pay for this home? Does it matter at all to you? I’d love to hear your honest take if you’d like to respond back (no pressure).
As a consumer I would certainly be hoping the appraiser would address this issue. In an ideal world you’re going to have some available comps with a similar set-up, and that will tell the story of value in the market because something similar has sold. In a world that’s not ideal, an appraiser is going to have to come up with some other way to support the value he/she says exists and explain whether there is an issue or not with the layout. Keep in mind if this property was listed on the market and there were 10 offers at list price, that in a way is data for the appraiser because it shows at least 10 buyers were willing to pay for the layout. Thus even if there are no recent sales, at least there’s that.
Hi… I have a house I’m selling and when I bought it tax records showed a 2br 2 bath house… the other room we r using as a third bedroom… the third room has a built in closet a window to the outside and a door to the garage… also has a door to the inside of house… can I list house as a 3br 2 bath…. thanks chad
Hi Chad. Thanks for reaching out. It’s hard to say what you can do since I am not in your market (presumably). It sounds like a bedroom to me as long as the size is adequate and the egress is adequate (the window is large enough). Keep in mind it would be a code violation in my area for the door in the “bedroom” to open into a garage. In that regard if this was in my area I could see some people arguing it is not able to be a bedroom, though others would say it was a bedroom (but with a door to the garage).
If you look up previous sales of your property, were they also listed as a two bedroom? What does your Realtor say if you are using one? Is there a septic tank that only allows for two bedrooms? These are all rhetorical questions, but they are definitely questions I’d be asking. I’m curious why Tax Records says two instead of three also. Part of me is curious if you have any old appraisals on file too. Did they say 2 or 3 bedrooms?
Hi Ryan, Your post is still relevant, after all these years. Great job.
I have 1 bedroom house on a septic system rated for 3 bedrooms. I want to convert a detached garage (about 400 s/f) into an permitted accessory dwelling. It would have room for a full bed, a ‘loft space’ accessed by stair, a big window, door, a kitchenette, a bathroom and a permanent heat source. My question is for the bathroom. Would it be best to install a shower as well as toilet? And I’m hesitant to connect it to the septic since that would mean digging up and reinforcing the driveway. Would a composting toilet or other alternative suffice? Considering I’ll be losing the garage, I’d like the unit to be considered an accessory dwelling. Or at least a studio. Thanks!
Hi Mandy. Thanks so much for the kind words. I think there are two issues here:
1) Local code: What does local code require? If you are going to get a permit, what they require for plumbing may be the deciding factor. For instance, if a composting toilet does not work per code, then it’s a no-brainer you’re going to have to do something else if the project is going to move forward. I would guess most lenders would want to see permanent plumbing, but that’s just a hunch. I recommend talking with a loan officer on that point. In truth I have yet to encounter one in person. I only see them on HGTV. 🙂
2) Enjoyment & Rent: You ought to consider the use of the unit. If you are going to simply use this for your own enjoyment or visiting family, it might not be a big deal to have no shower. But if you are going to rent it out, I’m not aware of too many tenants who are going to be down to rent a unit without a shower. Thus on a practical level the shower can be a huge issue. Honestly, if you are going to go through the trouble to build something out and it’s in your budget to do a shower, then I say go for the shower because it will increase the utility for renting right now and even selling in the future. Keep in mind an accessory dwelling by definition has to have a sleeping area, bathroom (that would include a shower), and a kitchen.
Hi Ryan, I looked up the requirements for the building but I hadn’t even considered the requirements for plumbing. I think you’re right, lenders will be looking for permanent plumbing. And a shower 🙂 Thanks!
I thought it was interesting I came across your blog and another blog, where the other blog written after yours plagiarized parts of yours word for word. When you were referring to Victorian Homes, closet bedrooms and such. Sue them and make millions my friend. ;D
https://appraisaltoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/AppraisalToday4-16issue.pdf
Thank you Jim. I appreciate the heads-up. Yeah, I emailed the publisher of the newsletter when this happened. She was very professional and addressed the “P word” in her next issue as it related to my article. I appreciated that. If we use people’s words, we have to cite them. Bottom line. I understand how something can not be cited on accident, but lifting entire sentences or paragraphs without citation is not a good look.
Glad they at least acknowledged it for you. Kind of funny if they thought it would go unnoticed on the world wide web. 🙂 I guess imitation (or P) is the highest for of flattery.
Anyways, thanks for the article. Helped me out in trying to figure out if my ‘bedroom’ can be counted as a bedroom. And nice of you to answer and help others with their questions. Have a good one Ryan!
Thanks Jim. 🙂
Hello,
I am currently in a bedroom with one other person that I’m pretty sure is either exactly 7 by 10 feet or is maybe smaller. Is there anything in the laws and requirements against multiple people in such a small bedroom? I was also given this room despite having been shown a bigger room with closet during my visit. I’ve already signed the contract and paid but I was given this tiny room with no storage instead. Are they allowed to give me something they didn’t tell me I’d be getting (as in I was sold on the belief I’d be getting the quality of the room they showed me originally)?
Hi Maya. I’m not aware of any rules about the number of people in bedrooms. I suppose there could be some rules, but I just don’t know about them. That doesn’t sound like the best situation to be given something different that you were expecting. It seems fishy to me, but technically this is a legal question, so I’m not qualified to answer for you. Sorry I couldn’t be more help.
Does the main door need to be a particular width?
The flat I’m in shares a wall with an unused storage room that nobody rents out, I was going to ask my housing if I could take that wall down and convert it into a second bedroom. (Good luck right?)
Anyway. The closet door is 2tf wide, as opposed to my other doors which are between 33 inches for my active bedroom, and the 35 inches for my front door.
Hi Anthony. I would rely on local code for how wide the door needs to be. Doors can vary substantially on width, so I don’t know that there is a one-size fits all answer here. A closet door may be a different issue too compared to an interior / exterior door. I wish I could have been more help. Good luck. 🙂
Does a bedroom need to have a completely solid door? Looking at a rental where a bedroom is listed but it gives off more of a sunroom vibe, the door is mainly glass, no closet, and it’s on the main floor. Just wondering so I can see if I can get the landlord to change the door so it really feels like a bedroom and has privacy. Thanks!
Hi Bruce. Thanks for asking. I would defer to your local code to answer this because the answer could be different depending on location. I typically see bedrooms with a hollow-core door. So it definitely has a solid look, but it’s hollow on the inside. Older homes from the 20s and such tend to have solid core doors. But I think that’s something else because you are maybe talking about whether the door has to basically promote privacy or not. I would still defer to local code. From an appraisal standpoint a bedroom would not cease to be a bedroom if it had no door or if it had hanging beads. Yet I think we can safely say in most areas it’s a basic expectation to have a door for a property that is rented. Sorry I could not be more help. I just don’t have a definitive answer for you.
It is important to note that neither the California Build Code (CBC) nor the California Residential Code (CRC) define what a bedroom is. Both the CBC & the CRC use the term “a room used for sleeping purposes” and you can sleep on your Living Room Sofa.
Thanks Win. So is a Living Room a bedroom then? Honest question. It is very true it can be used for sleeping purposes, though it was likely not built with the intent to be a bedroom unless we are talking about a studio. I suppose we could look at a Dining Room and think it could also function as a sleeping area. Though it was built with the intent for eating instead of sleeping. In my mind there is something to be said about the intent of the builder and what is common in the market too (despite the codes you mentioned being vague). Any thoughts?
I have a 3 bed 2 bath house with an additional office room. The office has egress windows, a door leading to a hall where the other bedrooms and bathroom is. It has an alcove where the closet would be in other models of the same house. It also has french doors, with windows, that lead to the foyer. If the french doors were closed with some sort of curtain over the windows, could that room be considered a bedroom? Or could I frost the windows for privacy?
Thanks John. I appreciate you reaching out. I find sometimes with french doors it makes a room less private and less functional because one wall is taken up with the doors (especially if they are both open). When a room has french doors and no closet, I’m more prone to count it as an office or den because that’s really what the room was designed to be. If the room had space for a closet like it does now and a traditional door, I’d be more prone to simply call it a bedroom because that’s what it’s been designed to be. Some appraisers might think differently, but in my mind frosted glass wouldn’t alter the design of the room. I realize some may use it as a bedroom, but in cases like this I find the vast bulk of people do not, and that may say something too. At the same time I think when a property like this sells on MLS we often see something like, “3-4 bedrooms” because it’s a nod that there is one room that could potentially be a bedroom, but isn’t quite one.
Thanks.
Hi Ryan,
Thanks for the great info -very helpful. One question I have is this: I have a 2nd floor room that I would like to use as a bedroom. It has 2 windows, each one 22 inches wide x 26 inches tall. They both open completely, the windows are on hinges and swing inward. The windows are close to the floor because the wall they are on is just a half wall with sloped ceiling above. The bottom of the windows are only about 2 inches above the floor, making the tops 28 inches from the floor. They could very easily be used as an escape in the event of emergency. The room meets all other bedroom requirements. Would this be allowed to be used as a bedroom? Or not because of the low windows?
Thanks kindly,
Todd
Hi Todd. I guess my first question is why are the windows so low? Was this maybe a converted attic? The windows sound like they are adequate in size based on what you are describing, but part of me wonders if the design of the room was built as a bedroom or what is happening here. If the room really isn’t intended as a bedroom in the first place, then maybe we have our answer already. I think on this one I would need to see it to make a judgement call and I would need to be in touch with the market where this property is located. Would this be acceptable in the market per code? Moreover, would the real estate community clearly recognize this as a bedroom? I am hesitant here to say this is a bedroom because of what I’m hearing, though like I said I would defer to local code. You are welcome to email me a couple pictures if you wish. That might help me give more detail.
Hi Ryan, thanks for the response! The house is 101 years old. It is a “story and a half” if that makes sense. There are other bedrooms on the 2nd floor, with sloped ceilings and dormers. This area in question is not an enclosed room right now, it is an area about 10′ x 10′ feet near top of stairs, with 3-walls. The windows are low because the wall that they are on is only about 3 ft tall, then the ceiling slopes upward and inward from there. It is a bit strange to have windows this low and when our kids were little we had to lock them for fear that they could open them and fall out. Probably not allowed in today’s code. Anyway, I would like to make it a bedroom for my daughter by adding the fourth wall and a doorway but my wife wants me to make sure it would be a “legal” bedroom first. I feel it is safe because she can escape from the window easily, probably much easier than if it were off the floor 44″ :). I guess I’m not really concerned about resale right now. I suppose that could change some day though. Anyway thanks again. I can send you pics if you would still like.
Todd
Thanks Todd. I get what you are saying. It is really hard to visualize. Please send a couple pics if you can. I do think the definitive authority here would be your local building department and the local market. Hands-down.
Hello Ryan,
I am building a casita in our backyard. It’s 420 sq. ft open floor plan with an enclosed full bathroom, a kitchen bar, insulated, heating/AC minisplit unit, Title 24 compliant, etc. Right now, it is permitted as an accessory structure, not an additional dwelling unit. I’m thinking in a couple of years I’ll have the casita re-permitted as a residential structure (i.e. habitable) so that it would be added to the square footage of our main house in the event that we would sell the house or convert the casita to a rental or AirBnB. Our main house is a 2-1; 840 sq ft high water bungalow.
Would the casita be considered an additional bedroom even though there are no interior walls or a closet inside the casita except for the bathroom? I’m assuming that the casita would be akin to a studio apartment; however, the objective would have our property listed as a 3-2 that is combined between the main house and the casita (1260 sq ft).
Thanks,
Pro Mitra
Hi Pro Mitra. This is a really great question. And in truth there are a few moving parts here. I’m going to give an answer and post a link with more information too so we can keep the discussion going as needed.
First, according to ANSI measuring standards, the detached area is not going to be included in the square footage of the main home. It doesn’t really matter what the area was permitted as. If you have to walk out of the main house to enter something else, then we’re really looking at a single family home with something else. This doesn’t mean the accessory unit cannot count in the value, but it does mean it won’t be lumped in to the square footage by appraisers. Here’s a post I wrote about this: https://sacramentoappraisalblog.com/2013/04/12/can-a-detached-unit-be-included-as-part-of-a-homes-square-footage/
Can you consider it a bedroom? For the main house, the answer is NO. If it is detached or not directly accessible from the house, it is not going to be lumped in as a bedroom into the total bedroom count. Of course if it is an accessory unit, then part of being an accessory unit is having a sleeping area. So in that regard it is a bedroom if the area has been designed and built for sleeping. It’s just not a third bedroom for the house. On a practical level many agents might market it is a 3-bedroom home, but it is still fundamentally a 2-bed house with a 1-bed accessory unit.
I will say I see agents market properties like this all the time as a 3/2. But is that what it is? Does the market really pay the same amount as other traditional 3/2s? That’s the big question, and we have to look to the market for examples. Let’s find other 2/1 homes with 1/1 accessory units to help us understand value. If we only choose 3/2 comps, we haven’t really proved anything other than what a traditional 3/2 is worth.
Does this make sense?
Yes, I understand. I know that the home can be presented on the market as a 3/2 but the detailed description would reveal that there would be 2 separate structures that would total as a 3/2. Also, I would imagine that the casita would be marketed as a potential rental unit for buyers who may be looking for that type of configuration. The County assessor records would still show the house to be a 2/1 but should also show that there’s an accessory structure with a full bathroom that is permitted. I’m hopeful that the combined 3/2 would still be appraised as a contiguous 3/2 for comparison purposes with some caveats, especially with AB 2299 in place to promote the construction of ADU’s.
Thanks for your help.
My pleasure. With the advent of more ADUs appraisers will have more data over time. This is a trend that’s not likely to go away in light of new laws that are popping up all over the place to make ADUs easier to build. The popularity of VRBO and Airbnb certainly helps too. I wish you the best as you build.
We have a house with an upstairs that currently is completely open. A little tricky to explain, but you walk up the stairs, there is a landing, and it opens up to both the left and right into two identical rooms without any doors to separate them. These “rooms” both are 12’x13′, 8′ height, have a full closet, heat and a window, but the windows are not large enough to meet current code. When we bought the house it was listed as a 3 bedroom (2 downstairs, 1 upstairs), but we’re hoping to be able to turn it into a 4 bedroom house. If we were to add in a wall with a door to each room and separate it into two private bedrooms, would we also have to replace the windows to be to code?
Hi Amanda. Thanks for reaching out. This really comes down to your local code and what the market expects. For instance, there are older properties in my area with a Mid-Century Modern design that tend to have windows that are just below the ceiling instead of typical windows found in a normal house where we might be able to easily get out of in case of an emergency. In these homes I wouldn’t say they don’t have any bedrooms because of the design. No, I would say this is acceptable in light of both architecture as well as code at the time in which the properties were built. In other words, the window height is simply grandfathered in to current code. With that being said, if a home like this (or yours) had a modification today, could it be a bedroom? That’s really a question to be answered by local code (what does code require for a bedroom?) as well as the market (would the market view these rooms as bedrooms?). Those are both questions I cannot answer unfortunately, but I do believe those are the questions to pursue answers to. Keep in mind local code is sometimes a bit ambiguous about specifics for a bedroom, but hopefully doing a little research for your market will prove helpful.
I would add that the room in question should have direct access to a half bath or full bath without going through another room to address its functional utility of the space to be truly considered a bedroom. A hallway access to a bath or half bath would be the exception of course.
Thanks Paul. I appreciate your comment. I’m curious what you are basing that on. Is there a standard in place that states a bedroom always needs to be near a bathroom? Some floorplans have an upstairs bedroom and that’s the only thing on the floor. Is it not a bedroom because of that? Based on what? Thanks again.
I believe there must be a source of heat/air conditioning available to room as well, to be a bedroom.
Thanks Chris. Heat is definitely part of the package for what is needed, thought it’s really a prerequisite for living space generally and not just for bedrooms. I’m really glad you mentioned that though. Thank you sincerely.
For any onlookers wondering about a heat source, I actually wrote a post about this earlier in the year: https://sacramentoappraisalblog.com/2018/03/22/what-type-of-heat-system-is-needed-for-a-loan/
Our bedrooms all currently have one egress window (up to code). If we wanted to add a second window to the rooms, do they have to be a minimum / maximum height from the floor since there’s already an egress window?
Hi Jill. Thanks so much for the comment. This is where I would defer to local code. The building department in your area will be the definitive source of truth here. I would suspect you may be okay to add another window of any size, but local code will have the final say.
It’s funny. I was just thinking “I wonder if these are considered bedrooms or not? I’ll call Lundquist.” Then before I did that, I thought well let’s just google it and see what comes up…Lundquist! lol Thanks!
That’s so funny Rob. Thanks so much. Yeah, this is a big question in real estate, and this has been a fun post. So much commentary. If you need any follow-up about your specific situation, just shoot me an email, text, or phone call.
Hi,
Great article. I do have a question….is a light switch mandatory in a “bedroom”. We are renting from a complex that is giving us some trouble, and they are marketing “3 bedroom” apartments for an increased rent, however, none of the “3 bedroom” units have a light switch in the 3rd bedroom. It’s my understanding, based on NJ electrical codes, that ALL bedrooms MUST have a light switch that controls an outlet, OR a light source controlled via a light switch.
If one is required, do we have any recourse for back rent credit or anything like that? Also, should I report the complex to the Electrical inspector and/or BBB for false advertising and unethical business practices for advertising 3 bedroom apartments?
Thanks for your help!
Hi Mike. Thanks for reaching out. This is where I would defer to local code. It seems odd to not have a light switch in a bedroom (or any other room for that matter). Is there really any recourse for you though? That’s not a question I’m qualified to answer as an appraiser. You may consider reaching out to your local building department to be sure about code and then talk to a tenant advocacy group in your area. I would let the information you get from both those groups guide you in making an informed decision about what to do. Sorry I couldn’t help specifically.
Hello Ryan. I live in NC in a housing development. I recently went through a recertification and they are trying to classify my unit as a 4 BD when it really is a 3. I have decided to appeal the decision and your article gave me the information I needed to support my claim. The room they want to classify as a 4th has no window, no closet, no heating/cooling vent and is literally just a big storage area. That is how we use it in fact cause there isn’t any bed that will fit in that room not even my son’s toddler bed without it sticking out the door. I thought I heard this information before that there had to be a means of escape other than the door in the event of a fire, plus I don’t believe it meets the ceiling requirements either. Thanks so much for the info.
Thanks Nickie. I appreciate your comment. Wow, that’s a wild situation. If they do end up counting this area, please ask them for a formal definition of a bedroom. I would be curious to see how they can justify this. Keep me posted if you can. Best wishes.
Ryan, as always, very clear and helpful guidance. For the City of Sac, how would a homeowner go about changing the number of bedrooms listed with the County Assessor’s office?
Hi Peter. I’m not sure their exact procedure in place for this. In the past I’ve seen them adjust square footage by relying on a sketch from a Certified Residential appraiser. In the past as a part of my sketch there have been instances where I’ve identified extra bedrooms, and I’ve seen them change based on that. Is there another mechanism in place though? I’m not 100% sure. My advice to you would be to call the Assessor’s office and ask them what the procedure is. Then you can know whether you need to reach out to an appraiser to get a sketch to verify the living area (and label each room) or if there is something else. Keep in mind if it’s a sketch, an appraiser can do this without needing to focus on value. This ends up saving you quite a bit of money since you don’t need a full-on appraisal – only a sketch. Hope that helps. Let me know if you have any follow-up questions. Likewise, if you hear something different, please pitch in your thoughts here so everyone can know.
Ryan, spoke with some helpful people at the Assessor office. They would be willing to consider the change, if an appraiser shared my perspective. Would you want to talk more about this with me sometime?
Thanks for the follow-up. I’m glad that’s still the practice too. This should be an easy remedy. Can you send me an email? lundquistcompany@gmail.com I’d be happy to hear about your situation and your timeline. If I can serve you, I’d love to do so. If not, I’ll gladly refer a colleague.
Hello. I am in the process of building a house off of my parents house (2 fully functioning houses connected together). I am tying into their septic which is built for 4 bedrooms. Originally, their house was 2 bedrooms, but when I was a kid my dad built me a bedroom in the basement (town doesn’t know).. making it 3 bedrooms.
I am building a 2-bedroom house, connecting the two houses with a door to the basement, technically making it a 5-bedroom house. My old room will be a store for my business and my daughters old room will be the dog’s room (toys and crate), neither of which will have doors.
I have an inspector coming in a couple of weeks and I am afraid he/she will decline my loan because there are 5 rooms that would be considered bedrooms.
Any advice? I have got to get out of my parent’s house but cannot afford to buy a 3-bedroom house in my town. I already have the foundation guy and the builder waiting on the loan and have already spent $2,000 on paperwork with the town.
Hi Tara. Thanks for reaching out. It sounds like this is going to come down to the interpretation of the city’s building inspector. I really cannot say either way, though it would possibly help your situation if the room did not look like a bedroom in any way when the inspector comes. I know that’s what I would personally do. Keep in mind if the inspector has a cow over the room, just ask what you can do to “de-room” that area so to speak. I would try to found out any specifics while the inspector is there just in case. If they require something, hopefully it would not be too exhaustive. I find sometimes code inspectors will flag a couple minor things, and hopefully that would be the situation here as a worst-case-scenario. If it was not a legal bedroom in the first place and does not contribute in any way to increasing the occupancy of the home, one would hope it wouldn’t be an issue. Best wishes.
Hi there! Perhaps you can help me. I was looking at local listings and noticed a house on my street is listed as having 4 bedrooms. I find this odd because every single house in my development, and especially those on my street, are identical. Some have a smaller master bedroom with its own bathroom, and some have slightly less square footage in the living room if it has stairs going up to the room from the front door (townhouses on streets with hills). But every house has 3 bedrooms, except this one I found listed as 4 bedrooms. From the pictures, it appears as though the front side of the basement has been finish off to be a bedroom. However, their is only one door and a window, but the bottom of the window is almost 5 feet off the floor, due to this area of the basement being below ground level. I ask if this can actually be a 4th bedroom because we have a finished room in the same area of the basement for when my grandmother lived with us, but we are not classified as 4 bedrooms. What are your thoughts?
Hi Dana. Thanks so much for reaching out. This is a straightforward question, but there are many moving parts to consider. I would definitely defer to local code on this issue. Does the building department consider this a bedroom or not? Is it permitted as a bedroom? Is it seen as a legal bedroom in the eyes of the city or county? Those are the real questions. From a lending standpoint it can be a struggle at times to consider below-grade area as square footage. Thus logically if an area is not considered square footage, it may not be considered a legit bedroom. I wrote about this issue at the following link. However, each local market is different, so we have to back up and ask if the market recognizes this as a bedroom (assuming it’s legal in the eyes of the city of course). Sorry to not be able to answer your question definitively, but as you can see there are a few other questions we have to start asking here… https://sacramentoappraisalblog.com/2014/05/27/can-a-basement-be-consdered-square-footage/
Thanks for your rapid reply Ryan. Your perspective certainly seems valid, given my inability so far to cite a specific source that requires a full bath on the same level as any bedroom! If anyone does find such a source, please share!
In this case the upstairs room would be BR2; I counted it as a Den because of the low closet (under roof pitch, with appx 40″ high door), and the fact that sleepers wanting to bathe would have to go down an open flight of stairs, through the Living Rm, and past the Kitchen / Dining area to access the second bathroom. The Master has it’s own bathroom.
I adjusted for GLA rather than BR count, which is what the market suggested for this assignment, and included 2 units of comparison with a second “non-conforming” BR showing that the GLA was more important here than bedroom count.
I guess another way could have been to count it as BR2, then apply functional depreciation for the awkward path the guy wearing a robe or towel has to traverse to reach the same bath that (non-sleepover) guests would use.
Hope this doesn’t make me sound lazy, but the functional depreciation seems much tougher to calculate / prove an adjustment for.
Any additional thoughts?
Thanks Walt. This is where we have to exercise humility as appraisers. I think the knee-jerk reaction is for some to say, “Here is the ONLY way to handle this,” or “You should ONLY do this…” But there are different ways to skin a cat so to speak. At the end of the day, is the value credible? And does your decision on how to deal with it reflect how the market would see the property? That’s what I would ask and it’s hard to argue with the methodology if the results are legit.
I’m cautious about being dogmatic in telling colleagues how to do something. It sounds like you’re listening to the market and trying to reflect that, so props to you. For what it’s worth, I rarely give bedroom adjustments unless there is a clear difference observed. I think I came to the industry and was taught to always give a certain dollar amount for a bedroom difference, but that’s just not the way the market works. Besides, sometimes we might adjust for GLA as well as bedroom count, which makes us essentially double-dip.
Anyway, thanks for the conversation. Good luck dealing with this one. I look forward to being in touch.
Let me first say you guys are great at responding and I for one appreciate the level of detial and care taken with each of them. I have a room off my living room that has a cathedral ceiling which opens up to the upstairs hallway the whole width of the room (approx 17″). Since anyone walking in the upstairs hall can look down over the rail and see everything, is this a bedroom? I also have a large room on the second floor with a 9′ opening to the hall way ( and the hallway opens to the room below as mentioned earlier). Is this a bedroom if there is no door and a wall would have to be extended to install a door.
Thank you in advance.
Hi Thomas. Thanks for the questions. It’s honestly not easy to visualize exactly what you are describing. To me it sounds like the area downstairs is maybe space to access the upstairs rather than a separate enclosed room or at least a space intended for sleeping (a bedroom). It’s tricky about the room upstairs. It could be a loft or an office. I wonder what it was intended as when the area was constructed. Any ideas what the builder meant this space for? In other words, is it really just an office, but we’re maybe trying to squeeze a bedroom out of it? If buyers walked through the home would they say, “Oh wow, look at this bedroom up here?” Just curious because sometimes perception can give us clues into what something is. It’s definitely not a common situation to look down from a bedroom and see something else, but I can see how in some situations a space like this could maybe work as a bedroom (despite not being exactly enclosed). For instance, in a loft style condo situation this might be the sleeping area. It’s maybe just a little bit more open than usual. Thoughts?
So my query was from the angle of tax assessments. I’m seeking a reduction and the legitimacy of the “3” bedroom is part of my claim justification- amongst other things.
Understood. If the Assessor is arguing for a larger bedroom count, then hopefully you can show support for a lower amount. It would probably help if you bought the property and it was advertised as a smaller amount. It could help if it has been advertised as a rental that way too. It might help to show photos to the Assessor also. Of course we don’t know how much weight their algorithm is giving to bedroom count compared to square footage, so this might not be incredibly meaningful to them too (to be fair). Best wishes.
Great article but I have one question. I live in apartment 2bedroom. One I used indeed as bedroom and other was office. I decided to open it up a bit (semi open floor plan) and cut off 50% of wall between these two room without putting any divider nor door between them, so I can seamlessly go from bedroom to office. Of course both rooms have own doors in different places, each windows and closets. Is it still legally a 2 bedroom apartment or would need to put back the missing drywall between rooms to completely separate them. Thanks
as I mentioned, only part of drywall between these rooms is gone not whole wall
Hi Eva. Thanks for reaching out. I cannot really speak to whether something is legally a bedroom, but I can speak from an appraiser perspective. I would likely consider this as two bedrooms for an appraisal but with a cost-to-cure. My sense is buyers would likely look at a place like this and realize it is fundamentally two bedrooms but there is a repair that is needed. Though I can see some colleagues maybe wanting to say it is a one bedroom with a potential of a second bedroom. The layout sounds like a traditional two bedroom though, so I’m thinking it sounds like two bedrooms but with a large hole in the wall. All that said, if someone completely removes a wall and there is just one open space between the two areas, then I do call it one bedroom. I did this in a report recently. Still a buyer might look at it and put a dividing wall in again, but because there was literally no wall it didn’t make sense to call it two bedrooms. So I guess there comes a point when the hole or wall is so removed that I could start to call it one instead of two. I realize this sounds very subjective, but that’s the nature of real estate at times. We have to make judgment calls based on what we see and what buyers would perceive. At times people do some really wild things to their homes that don’t quite fit any formal definition too.
Hi Ryan, what if you put a sliding door that covers completely the hole between two rooms. Can in the situation Eva described be considered two bedrooms?
Hi Max. It’s so hard to speak to this. I think I’d have to see it to make any sort of judgement call. I wish I could offer something more definitive. I will say it is really uncommon to have a sliding glass door separate two bedrooms if that’s what you are referring to. I don’t know that I’ve ever seen that before and from my perspective as an appraiser that would probably trigger further investigation as to why this situation exists (lack of permits would be the first thing I would wonder about).
New construction home. One of the bedrooms they put the window in the closet and not the bedroom. The 3D model clearly shows it in bedroom. Is this still considered a bedroom? Do I have any options to have builder move it?
Hi Matt. This is where I would defer to local code. I don’t think I’ve seen this before, so at the least I would say this is very odd. If their 3-D model shows the window in the bedroom though I would 100% challenge them on it and tell them to build it to specs and plans because that’s what you are buying. If you want a more definitive word though on the answer to your question I would call the local city or county and ask them what code requires for a bedroom for a window and/or level of light. This might be a technical card you can play with the builder if needed. Are they making this mistake on other models too or just yours? Yikes.
If a bedroom has one door that connects to the main hallway and then one door that connects to a different bedroom, are both bedrooms still considered 2 separate rooms?
Hi Emma. It’s hard to visualize exactly what you are talking about with certainty, but this sounds like a bedroom that then opens up to a different room. Typically when it’s a different room I’d call it a retreat or something to that effect because it’s not normal for a bedroom not to open up directly to the rest of the house. I think it’s hard to call something a bedroom when you have to fully walk through another bedroom. Though I wouldn’t split hairs if a colleague wanted to call the other room a bedroom with functional obsolescence. Keep in mind I’m speaking from the perspective of an appraiser and not a legal standpoint too.
I have a room that is completely on the interior of the house. No windows band the door opens into the hallway. It meets all the requirements for a bedroom except for having a window. If I added a window that opens into the same hallway as the door would it meet the requirements?
Joe
Hi Joe. Is this the only bedroom in the house? I’m just trying to put my mind around what you are dealing with here. This does NOT sound like a bedroom to me because there is no egress to the exterior. I suppose if it was a unique home though maybe I would color outside of the lines though (said as an appraiser – not a building code guy).
The 70 square foot square feet for a habitable room is not so easy to determine with regards to sloping ceilings. On one hand CRC states 50% can be below 7 feet, but on the other hand it says no floor area with less than 7 feet height can be counted as habitable space (and no less than 5 feet for non-furred ceilings). Do you know what the definition of a furred ceiling is with regards to CA Residential Code?
Hi Stephen. I’m not certain what code would say regarding a furred ceiling, though I will say 70 sq ft is tiny. This is hardly ever an issue. I find most spaces with sloped ceilings are far above just 70 sq ft.
Comes up all the time in San Francisco with older Victorian or Edwardian homes. Many have what I would call a ‘fainting’ room, that many agents and sellers want to refer to as a bedroom. They often have a sloped ceiling due to the stairs leading to a floor above, and depending on where you mark the point of the slope for ceiling height, it can make or break the categorization. When really, the house was not originally built for this area to be considered a bedroom.
Interesting. I’m not familiar with that type of room. It sounds like some sort of room that exists as a transition more than anything.
Great article. Thanks for this blog. lots of good info! I am currently appraising a property with many rooms claiming to be bedrooms but they have glass block windows that do not open. all other requirements are met to call them bedrooms except this. Its a bit frustrating due to the fact that if the glass blocks were replaced with windows they could be considered bedrooms. This is in a basement area so it is a safety concern to call them bedrooms without windows.
Thanks Sebastian. I’d definitely defer to local code. What does local code allow for a basement? Are the rules any different? It does sound like a safety concern to me, but I would check in with code too because sometimes basement windows are really tiny. Hopefully this isn’t the second bedroom in a two-bedroom home. I wonder who installed the glass blocks too?
Hello, Mr. Lundquist. When our 3 bedroom 2 bath home was being built in 2004 we decided to add french doors to the bedroom adjacent to the living room so that it could be used for multiple purposes. We consulted several entities before doing so to make sure it would still be considered a bedroom and not negatively effect the value of our home. We were assured that since it was actually a bedroom and that the french doors were going to be in addition to the original bedroom door, and because it would be fairly inexpensive to remove the doors and make it a wall again, it would not decrease our home’s value. Our county taxes our home as 3 bedrooms and 2 previous appraisers considered our home 3 bedrooms. Unfortunately, while attempting to refinance in 2016 the appraiser we encountered refused to assess our home as 3 bedrooms. He exclaimed, “I wouldn’t want to sleep in there! Would you?! Someone could watch me sleep!” I explained that the room meant the required criteria, that it would be simple to fill the door space back in, and showed him that we had tracks with blackout drapes installed above the doors for privacy but it was to no avail. He assessed our home as 2 bedrooms and at $32,000 less than previous appraisals. Forward to the present where we have just begun the process of again attempting to refinance our home. We were hoping for a cash-out option to do some upgrades and possibly add a garage but are afraid we are going to encounter the same appraiser or someone with a similar mindset. Is there a way to prevent the past from repeating itself? It does not seem reasonable to reduce a home’s value by $32,000 when it would cost less than $2,500 to wall-in a doorway. Thank you for any insight.
Hi Kas. Thanks for sharing your story. I really appreciate. Unfortunately there is always going to be uncertainty in escrows and it’s not over until it’s over. So on one hand you never know what is going to happen with an appraisal or an escrow until it’s done. It’s the nature of the beast. With that said, I wrote a different post about this very topic if you want to check it out.
If the cost-to-cure is adding a normal door, it seems silly to deduct a crazy amount and not consider this extra space. At times I think appraisers get too hung up on the technicalities of a bedroom and they don’t view the property like the market. Of course at times appraisers are spot on and owners are out of sync. Here is a post I wrote though. Maybe check it out and read through the comments. If you have any pointed questions, feel free to reach out.
1) When it’s almost three bedrooms: https://sacramentoappraisalblog.com/2017/11/08/when-a-home-is-almost-three-bedrooms-but-technically-only-two/
2) Refinance “cheat sheet”: Also, here is an information sheet I recommend sharing with the appraiser to help tell the story of your property. https://sacramentoappraisalblog.com/2014/11/18/a-cheat-sheet-of-information-to-provide-to-the-appraiser-during-a-refinance/
Best wishes.
Inciteful but totally incorrect in terms of what Fannie Mae considers a room or bedroom and don’t they rule the mortgage world? Fannie has no size, height, or closet guidelines, they only require proper egress. IRC may have a 70 sf minimum room size requirement and ANSI may have a 7′ ceiling requirement but what good are those standards if neither the county assessor, Realtors or even the majority of the appraisal world does not use those guidelines? If I tell a client that their upper level does not contain the same GLA as the tax record but all of my adjustments are based upon measurements that none of these organizations use how is that acceptable? Until one standard is used throughout how can you make adjustments when you know that the other data does not use the same standards? Just curious on how you resolve this?
Thank you Brian. Yeah, I’ve never seen Fannie Mae publish a bedroom definition. That’s exactly why I didn’t talk about Fannie Mae’s standards. I wouldn’t look to the GSEs as the standard though anyway – especially for private work. So I guess I hear you in being “incorrect”, but there is not a correct definition for Fannie Mae as far as I know. In short, Fannie Mae has guidelines for what appraisers ought to do for many things, but they are not USPAP and they are not the building department or code enforcement. This is exactly why we have to consider actual code and logic as I’ve laid out in this post. I think it would be great to adopt one national standard. For now we have to think critically about bedrooms, be careful about real estate folklore handed down about what a bedroom is and isn’t (for instance, the closet issue as I outlined above), and as appraisers at least reflect the market since some markets might think about bedrooms differently. I believe all of us appraisers have to interact with content as I’ve laid out above and sift these bedroom requirements through their location. Regarding your last question, I suppose there are different ways to handle this. That’s really outside of what this post here is about, but I suspect it would be wise for appraisers to adopt a recognized standard for measuring square footage to be able to explain what they did and why they did it. But in my experience it’s important to be in tune with what buyers think, how the Assessor has calculated square footage, etc… In other words, a national standard doesn’t completely remove complexity because there is often some level of good professional judgement needed too.
Thank you for replying, I really was not implying that you are right or wrong but rather that no one uses a defined standard which we all should, starting from the assessor on down including Fannie and the GSE’s. It really bothers me that Fannie places such high importance on GLA adjustments and the support for those adjustments when the MLS record is most likely incorrect because the Realtor used the county record and the county doesn’t use any standards, at least in my world they don’t! I appreciate your blog, I often refer to your different articles.
That makes perfect sense. Thanks Brian. I appreciate the kind words also. It gets so tricky with GLA. I actually had a neighbor of a listing call me a while back because this person was offended that the square footage I measured for the listing agent was different than tax records. It’s a long story and maybe it’ll be a blog post at some point. In short though, this person was simply incorrect and felt hung up on Tax Records despite what was actually at this house (even multiple other refinance appraisals and listings supported my square footage). At the end of the day in my area at least I defer to Tax Records even though it’s not perfect. But if there is a compelling reason not to use that figure, I definitely use a more reliable figure.
My house is currently being assessed and taxed as a 4 bedroom house. It has two obvious bedrooms upstairs but I’m not positive where they are getting the other two. Perhaps my dining room and den. The dining room sets between the living room and kitchen and you are required to go through it to get between the two. The den sets between the kitchen and the back door. It also sets between the kitchen and basement access. Would I have an argument to get a reassessment as a two bedroom to get the taxes lowered?
Hi Randy. It’s so hard to speak into this without seeing the house in person. Was there previously a remodel that removed a bedroom maybe? Or I wonder if the Den is really a third bedroom at least? Sometimes Assessors simply have the wrong bedroom count. This makes me wonder if they have the correct square footage too. I’m a big fan of paying my fair share of taxes only, so I would probably try to make the argument there are fewer bedrooms. Will that make a difference with the Assessor’s algorithm though? I don’t know. But here’s a question for you. When you bought your property, how many bedrooms were listed on MLS? I’m not saying this is you, but I find sometimes people buy a 3 or 4-bedroom home on MLS and then make the argument for fewer bedrooms when in fact the property was already marketed as having more bedrooms and that’s what it was purchased for too. Just food for thought as this can be something an Assessor could maybe consider looking at. Or have you had an appraisal in recent years? If so, how many bedrooms did the appraiser say the house had? These are just rhetorical questions, but I’m glad to keep the conversation going as needed.
Best wishes.
You haven’t mentioned septic systems and drain fields. We’ve added a 5th BR with full egress in the basement of our new 4 BR home.
However, because the drain field is certified for only 4 bedrooms, I still have only a 4 bedroom house. I suppose I could knock out a wall upstairs, combining two bedrooms into one. Then my basement BR would actually be counted as a BR.
Hi Wiley. Yes, this is definitely an issue for septic systems and it should be considered a 4-bedroom home in light of the septic size (so long as the appraiser actually knows this detail of course). I don’t know that you need to knock out any walls as an appraiser can always consider one of the rooms as a den. I wonder what permits show this space is if you did this addition with permits.
Can you use two 16″ doors (French pair) instead of a 32″ single door as an entrance to a bedroom? The overall opening would provide ample width for egress but there’s that tricky part with active and passive leafs, privacy latches, and fixing the passive side, leaving just a 16″ free swinging opening.
Hi Laurel. Thanks for the comment. You know, this is where I would defer to local code. As an appraiser, I wouldn’t likely say it’s not a bedroom because of the type of door, but code is the trump card here.
I’m thinking of dividing my lanai with a wall and a pocket door, will that constitute a 3rd bedroom? Also, from what I read, still not sure if it needs a closet, we’re thinking if so, getting a wardrobe and nailing the back to the wall, so it’s immobile. Thanks for any info.
Hi Anthony. It’s so hard to say without seeing the exact setup. A lanai isn’t something we have in my local market, though I suppose some might call an enclosed patio a lanai at times. I would ask some local real estate professionals and consult with local code too. Keep in mind a room might functionally be used as a bedroom, but it might not legally be seen as one by local code and/or local real estate professionals.