If the owner removes the closet, can it still be counted as a bedroom? I’ve had this question a few times this month, so let’s talk about it. I’ve written before about closets and the definition of a bedroom, but today I want to just focus on eliminating the closet. I’d love to hear your take in the comments.
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IS IT STILL A BEDROOM IF THE CLOSET IS REMOVED?
This can be a tricky question because there are so many different scenarios, and each situation might not perfectly fit my answer. In short, if all an owner does is remove a closet, I lean toward saying it is still a bedroom. Let’s be logical. Imagine if you had a four-bedroom home and took out the closets. Is it now a zero-bedroom home? Absolutely not. That sounds absurd because it still has four rooms intended as bedrooms. Yet, it does now have some functional issues since buyers walk through thinking, “Where the heck are the closets?” We just wouldn’t go so far as to say bedrooms no longer exist, right?
If the cost-to-cure is minimal to add a closet, let’s not overthink this issue because it’s unlikely that buyers would deduct a significant amount in value when the cost-to-cure is so small. What we don’t want to do is get so caught up on a closet technicality that we fail to think logically. So, if we now compare a three-bedroom home to two-bedroom comps, we could be choosing the wrong comps and missing the way buyers actually perceive the home. Don’t get me wrong. There could be a big difference in value sometimes between a two-bedroom and three-bedroom home, but if the only difference is literally a closet, that’s not the same thing as comparing a three-bedroom and a traditional two-bedroom that doesn’t have any extra bedroom potential. However, if an owner removes a closet by expanding an adjacent bathroom into that space, there could be a functional problem in an older home with smaller rooms already. This is where it can get weird if adding a closet would mean the bedroom is now tiny, so I get when real estate professionals use good professional judgement at times when deciding if an area is a bedroom or not.
Ultimately, many people say closets are required because that’s what they’ve always been told, but there really isn’t an overarching rule that says so. However, it’s likely the market requires them (or local code). So, on one hand we don’t want to minimize the importance of a closet because it’s normative and expected among buyers. On the other hand, let’s not go to the extreme of being unable to think like buyers who would use logic and find the path of least resistance by spending a minor amount of money to add a closet.
All that said, I wouldn’t split hairs if a colleague wanted to call it something else besides a bedroom because this feels like a gray area where there is room for interpretation. In real estate, we often want things to be black and white and clearly defined, but that’s not always possible. I think the most important issue here is that we’re considering comps with the same room count and functionality (and not being too rigid about removing a closet). No matter what, it’s really important in appraisals and real estate listings to explain what is at the house and be as clear as possible.
Here’s a reel I made on Instagram to talk about this post.
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ADVICE TO OWNERS
Don’t remove closets. It makes it awkward, and in today’s market buyers are very picky about everything. If a home has too many oddities, it creates roadblocks for buyers to say yes. Look, do whatever you want. It’s your palace. I’m just saying keeping the closets is a good move. On a related note, people sometimes convert a three-bedroom home into a two-bedroom home by combining bedrooms. That’s not something I advise either from a resale perspective (but do as you wish).
WHAT ABOUT A BUILDER DEN OPTION?
If a home was built with a den, can we consider that a bedroom? Well, we just called it a den, and that signifies it’s something else besides a bedroom. That’s sort of like when someone wants to include a Sun Room as square footage. Bro, you just called it a Sun Room, which tells me it’s something else and probably not square footage. Anyway, the den option almost feels like a bedroom because it has space for a closet and a window to the exterior, but being open to the rest of the house with no privacy makes it a den instead of a bedroom. In this situation, buyers might recognize the potential to convert the area to a bedroom, but it’s also not as cheap as adding a closet since now we have to build an entire wall including a door. In short, I definitely wouldn’t count a den as a bedroom with a situation like this because it doesn’t feel like a bedroom (and buyers wouldn’t call it a bedroom).
EWW, YOU SOUND SO SUBJECTIVE TODAY
I realize my post today feels a bit subjective, but this is what it’s like in the trenches of real estate where we have to use good professional judgement and make subjective calls supported by reason and market perception. I find it’s easy to want to impose one rigid definition on every property, but that just doesn’t work.
DON’T GET TALKED INTO SAYING IT’S A BEDROOM
One final thing. Be careful about being talked into considering an area as a bedroom when the space clearly doesn’t feel like a bedroom or meet the general requirements. At times, sellers will add a closet to an attic and say it’s a bedroom, but it really isn’t permitted square footage. Or imagine an owner converts a den to a full bedroom, but the septic tank is not big enough for an extra bedroom (yikes). Or an owner might add a closet to an office in the interior of the layout, but it doesn’t work as a bedroom since a bedroom needs direct egress to the exterior of the house.
Thanks for being here. I hope this was helpful.
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Let the market decide. Would the typical buyer accept and utilize the room as a bedroom? Would the cost to cure of the addition of a closet outweigh the increase in value for the additional bedroom? These questions have to be considered. I also have run into quite a few issues with use of ANSI for houses with lower second floor ceilings in my area. A house may have 0 bedrooms according to ANSI. The market may look at it quite differently. I always consider market above guidelines and explain in the report if the two don’t agree.
Thank you. You know, that gets really weird with ANSI, and I think that underscores your point perfectly. How would the market view this?
Requirements for a room to be a bedroom:
Entrance/Exit: A bedroom needs at least two methods of egress, so it should be accessible from the house (commonly through a door), and then have one other exit (window or door) beyond the entrance point. A door to the exterior works as an exit point, and so does a window. According to the International Residential Code, a bedroom window can be between 24 and 44 inches from the floor, it needs at least 5.7 square feet for the opening, and it must measure no less than 24 inches high and 20 inches wide (R310.1).
Ceiling Height: A bedroom ceiling needs to be at least 7 ft tall. It’s okay if some portions of the ceiling are below this level, but at least 50% of the ceiling needs to be a minimum of 7 ft in height. (ANSI & IRC).
Size: The room must be at least 70 sq ft, and more specifically the room cannot be smaller than 7 feet in any horizontal direction. (R304.1 / R305.1.1).
Bedroom Common Sense:
It is possible that some types of architecture might not have closets, but that does not mean the home has zero bedrooms. If you removed all the closets in your house, would that mean your house does not have any bedrooms? Probably not. Using professional judgement and common sense is the best way to determine what is and what is not a bedroom. Buyer expectations, architecture and local code is a good place to start.
Code could be the septic permit specifying the number of bedrooms allowed. If the septic permit only allows 3 bedrooms, then that “4th bedroom” could not be a bedroom and would logically need to be a den or other room. Functional utility includes interior access from main living area and not through another bedroom or bathroom. In summary, if it has adequate ingress/egress, size, and functional utility there is no reason you could not call it a bedroom. This is where your professional judgement comes in. How does the market view the room?
Exactly. Thank you. I wrote about this years ago, but I didn’t want to hash out specific requirements (though that may have helped the post a bit). I appreciate it. And agreed on the septic. So important.
My general rule of thumb has been however,
the market views or reacts to it. It is possible to still consider it a bedroom as one merely needs to put in an armoire. I did many appraisals on the near south side of Milwaukee, where these homes were built-in 1900. And there were no closets, because people didn’t have much clothing. Those were all still bedrooms. If one gets push back from underwriting, you can merely put in a cost to cure line as I used to do. If a homeowner had eliminated 2 bedrooms to turn it into one large bedroom, what is the cost of cure to return it to its prior full bedroom use.
Great commentary, Jim. I really appreciate your examples.
Old homes (100yrs+) up here in the foothill seldom have closets in any bedrooms. And up country, where people are on septic systems (at least here in Amador county) have the bedroom capacity capped by the septic capacity, which is based on bedroom count, not bathroom count. A couple of additional idiosyncrasies that we have to take into consideration.
Great stuff. Thank you, Jack. This just shows that the local market might have different vibes than what we see elsewhere. The septic issue is not something even on the radar for city folks.
Hi Ryan!
Thank you for this – it is extremely helpful to know that there are no hard and fast rules…let common sense prevail!
Thanks, Paula. Yeah, the world seems gray, and I find it’s true in real estate also. We crave black and white for everything, but mostly everything is gray. So, common sense is required.
Put in armoire’s. They will still qualify as bedrooms. May have said that in the article. Too long to read.
Thanks for stopping by. I would view those as personal property more than anything. A viable solution for storage though for someone who needs it.
In Europe very seldom do you see built-in closets.
Must be an American thing.
Fascinating to hear. Now I want to see a big blog post on closets in different cultures. 🙂
I can fix that bedroom with a closet from IKEA 😀 Thank you for a great reminder post. We get this question often and I usually send clients to your blog posts of the past.
Thanks, Gary. Yeah, I feel like we give so much power to a closet sometimes. I suspect many buyers would do exactly that. This is not to say closets don’t matter. And by the way, I met up with a guy this morning who grows giant pumpkins like you do.
Great topic as always, Ryan. I lean towards recognizing the market reaction to the room as it relates to the subject market segment. There are a couple of examples that come to mind…
1) historic homes utilized large wardrobes as closets, prior to built-in closets – but the rooms (some quite small) were utilized and are yet utilized in their respective market segments, as bedrooms.
2) in some market segments, dwellings may mostly have 3-4 designated bedrooms and also den rooms with closets. In summary, I recognize them as the market recognizes them, with or without built-in closets.
Thank you, Brent. It seems like the buyer pool is large enough to make it work with a 3-4 bedrooms situation. If a technical den is enclosed and does not have a closet, many people can make that room still work as a functional bedroom.
On a random note, I always remember an episode of Different Strokes where Gary Coleman flunked a test at the school that said how many people could live inside a house. The so-called standard answer was just different than his experience that said more people could inhabit them just one per room (this is how I remembered it as a kid while watching, of course).
All the comments today have reminded me that not everyone sees everything the same, and a technical difference of a closet would be very much not meaningful at all to some people in the marketplace.
Came here to mention septic systems, but other folks beat me to the punch.
If the Dude says it’s a bedroom, it’s a bedroom, right? Nice one.
I can always count on you for septic comments. I actually include one line of commentary this time around to address that very thing within my post. And true. The Dude abides.
I have a listing that states 4 bedrooms by the County, but one of the bedrooms is clearly an office with a built-in desk, shelves…and a closet. It’s located between the kitchen and door to the garage. So, is it a bedroom or an office? I’m having a hard time justifying it as a bedroom.
I think at some point, when a room starts to functionally feel more like an office, that’s what I call it. For me, that’s often french doors and no closet. But is the door a standard bedroom door? If it is, and literally the only difference is a built-in desk, I’m not set on only calling it an office because the office part can be very easily removed. I actually appraised a house recently like this with a built-in desk, and I still called it a bedroom because I think the owner was simply using the bedroom as an office. I didn’t view the desk as a trump card for changing the nature of the room. Happy to give you a more developed opinion if you want to text or email me some pics. And I concur that it’s not always easy to make a decision on this.
Ryan, I just listed a 1 bedroom condo with a large loft. Great topic. I think the buyer and market need to determine use for sq.ft and the appraisers work under their guidelines also. Most important when choosing comps. Thanks always for the work and common sense conversations
Thanks, Bob. Oh, it gets interesting out there to interpret what everything is. I think this is why we sometimes see properties listed as “1-2 beds” in MLS.
I call it an office or den if it doesn’t have any windows (unusual) or (more common) has a barn door or paned-glass doors for entry.
If it has a regular opaque door with a doorknob, and at least one window, I call it a bedroom.
Same. A bedroom needs egress (or at least a window if it’s multiple stories up). It starts to feel like a non-bedroom when there is a barn door or french doors, no closet, etc… Some would argue it’s a bedroom still, but it has the feel of a den or office in my mind.
This makes me think of Europe! It’s really common that homes do not have closets in any of the bedrooms because people bring/take them when they move. It’s the same way with kitchens in a lot of instances too. When you buy the hookups are just there and sellers take their cabinets and appliances with them.
No way. I never knew that about the kitchen. Wow!!! Thanks Marvin.
Zoning, and county jurisdiction
If a home is rezoned or zoned commercial but used as single family how does the law see it and highest and best use. No add letting the market decide is it a buyers market typically with kids or raising kids vs retirement sunshine states?
Where’s the beef ( value ) ?
What is the appraisers role and does it even matter?
Meaning so many appraisers compound adjustments vs you already applied a GLA adjustment and if the market could care less if it’s a den, office or bedroom no value added vs the footprint…
If one is not sure save the adjustment for last where is your value? If you adjust is it more in line with the market or the opposite?
Regarding zoning and law that’s your baseline for narrative comments regarding the offset etc..
Thanks Alan. I think you are very right that the market just doesn’t care sometimes. As appraisers, we like to talk sometimes like the market is hyper-sensitive about this stuff, but it may prove very challenging to quantify any sort of market reaction for minor stuff. Very true about different portions of the market also. I find in 55+ communities that a third technical bedroom likely means very little because people don’t tend to need a third bedroom (they do likely want a third space for an office or something though).
As others have said, let the market decide. What would the typical market participant utilize the “room” as.
That said, the reason closets became the defacto reason to classify something as a “Bedroom” is specifically because of OSS systems (Onsite Sewage Systems or septic systems for you city folk). Municipalities had to have some uniform physical characteristic to identify whether or not an OSS was of sufficient size to support the occupancy of the residence it serviced. As most familiar know, an OSS is rated by the number of bedrooms it can support and that calculation is based upon the average # of persons that occupy a “bedroom” rather than the bath count because each person uses a certain amount of water and creates a certain amount of “waste”. Example, you can have a 1-bedroom home and 7 bathrooms (i.e. Kareem Abdul Jabar) and the amount of “waste” created assuming the number of people occupying that 1-bedroom is limited. Conversely a home with 7 bedrooms and 1 bathroom is going to create much more waste on a daily basis. Thus, municipalities have settled on “closets” being the defining characteristic to use as their way of “counting” the number of bedrooms.
However, I have seen many homes with OSS systems that have no closets or 2 rooms with closets identified as bedrooms and a den or office space for the current occupant that I would consider being a 3-bedroom home because the typical market participant would just as soon use that den/office as a 3rd bedroom as they would a den office. I may cite the house as a 3-bedroom home in my appraisal if that is the conclusion of my H&BU study which may show that there are so few 2-bedroom homes in the area that a 3-bedroom home is the expectation of market participants in that area.
My comment is getting nearly as long as the original article so I will end here, but you get the idea.
Fascinating stuff, Todd. I appreciate the time you spent to share thoughts (and the Kareem reference is golden). Haha. Appreciate you.